1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Bizarre Sayings of Paul

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by The Reverend Bob, Jul 13, 2019.

  1. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    If any of you can explain to us how these examples make any sense I will be grateful for your effort but it should be a rational explanation. Let the weirdness begin.

    One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. This testimony is true. Titus 1:12-13

    Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. Romans 13:3

    Women will be saved through childbearing 1 Timothy 2:15

    From now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none 1 Corinthians 7:29

    But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40

    I have to brag. There is nothing to be gained by it, but I must brag about the visions and other things that the Lord has shown me. I know about one of Christ's followers who was taken up into the third heaven 14 years ago. I don't know if the man was still in his body when it happened, but God certainly knows.
    As I said, only God really knows if this man was in his body at the time. But he was taken up into paradise, where he heard things too wonderful to tell. I will brag about that man, but not about myself, except to say how weak I am. 2 Corinthians 12:1-5

    I do not permit a woman to teach. 1 Timothy 2:9

    We also gave you this rule: If you don't work, you don't eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:10
     
    #1 The Reverend Bob, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    7,533
    Ratings:
    +2,806
    One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. This testimony is true. Titus 9:12-13


    Hahahaha... Now you have my curiosity. Who are you exactly..

    Liars paradox. All cretans are liars. AND I AM A CRETAN!

    Me doesnt think yea a mere plumber. Possibly an accountant
     
  3. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    3,087
    Ratings:
    +1,916
    Religion:
    Christian
    Paul would make an entertaining RF member. (Surely one has to agree regardless of what side or position they're taking.)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    I think he would put us all on ignore
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  5. SugarOcean

    SugarOcean ¡pɹᴉǝM ʎɐʇS

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2019
    Messages:
    1,048
    Ratings:
    +281
    Religion:
    Christian
    Not all Christians are what are known as , "Paulines".
    Take a look at just one example. Jesus Words Only, website.
    Jesus forewarned his Disciples of what would later appear as Saul. He instructed them, no not believe them.
    The Apostles of Christ never referred to Saul as an Apostle. Though Saul self-identified as such multiple times in his own writings. Instead, the Apostles referred to Saul as brother. Which was a term for any believer in those days.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  6. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    22,701
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Especially the women as they should be silent on these issues according to what is written about Paul.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  7. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    He would be aghast that they aren't in burkas
     
  8. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    22,701
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    Paul is a pure contradiction of the Bible, the very fact that he's even in there shows how made-up and redacted the Bible is because he couldn't have met Jesus because people were instructed not to believe if someone came down before all the signs were fulfilled whom said that he was Jesus, whereas Paul strangely claimed it was.

    It totally destroys Christianity or at least changes it substantially we're either the second coming is fabricated or had already occurred , or Paul is purely fabricated and added in.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    What makes it more confusing for many is that they just don't understand that many of the epistles Paul supposedly wrote weren't written by Paul and even in the epistles he wrote they were heavily edited and redacted and there are interpolations inserted in them.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,976
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    I have heard discussion about Paul being the author of some of those sayings. Not sure, but I think that Jewish women teach. Paul was a Jew....

    The rest of this is an example of why I think that there are errors in interpretation.
     
  11. The Reverend Bob

    The Reverend Bob Fart Machine and Beastmaster

    Joined:
    May 19, 2019
    Messages:
    3,605
    Ratings:
    +1,732
    Religion:
    Non-realist
    There is a strong tradition of women teaching.

    Exodus 15:20 Miriam
    Judges 4:4 Deborah
    2 Kings 22:14 Huldah
    Nehemiah 6:14 Noadiah
    Isaiah 8:3 Isaiah's wife
    Acts 2:4 The women at Pentecost
    Acts 18:26 Priscilla
    Psalm 68:11 The women of Judah
    Romans 16:1–2 Phoebe
    Romans 16:7 Junia
     
  12. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    9,534
    Ratings:
    +8,211
    Religion:
    none
    Paul didn't write Timothy or Titus, was some other dude pretending to be Paul
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. rocala

    rocala Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2014
    Messages:
    592
    Ratings:
    +393
    Religion:
    Buddhism / Druidry
    A very odd choice of phrase considering what "rulers" did to Jesus and John the Baptist. Not to mention Herods alleged antics.
     
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,560
    Ratings:
    +4,962
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Might as well post this here too.....

    Lets take them one at a time.....keeping in mind that these quotes are taken out of context....and many of these verses are not the whole quote.

    One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, idle gluttons. This testimony is true. Titus 1:12-13

    Paul found it appropriate to quote the words that apparently originated with Epimenides, a Cretan poet (prophet or spokesman) in the sixth century B.C.E. But Paul was agreeing with that description as applied to a particular segment of the Cretan population. These were the ‘profitless talkers and deceivers of the mind’ who were in contact with faithful Christians and were trying to ‘subvert entire households.’ Such subversive deceivers truly fit the description “liars, injurious wild beasts,” which was equally true of people like that elsewhere. (2 Timothy 3:6; 13) Paul was not making that statement about all Cretans but agreeing with a Cretan poet Epimenides made 600 years earlier about his own people.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. Romans 13:3

    The apostles taught the Church to obey the laws of the land, and to respect those in authority because of their office, . . . to pay their appointed taxes, and except where they conflict with God’s laws (Acts of the Apostles 4:19; 5:29) to offer no resistance to any established law. (Romans 13:1-7; Matthew 22:21)
    Those who cause no friction with the law are a welcome relief for those in authority. Those who are law abiding have nothing to fear from the authorities and are often praised as model citizens.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Women will be saved through childbearing 1 Timothy 2:15


    Under inspiration Paul was discussing the proper attitudes and activities for women in a first century setting. One worthwhile and protective function for Christian wives was caring for their children. He said, if you quote the whole verse...."She will be kept safe through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and sanctification along with soundness of mind.”
    Paul was discussing the proper frame of mind and duties for women. In the congregation their attitude should be one of submissiveness, recognizing that they are not to try to exercise authority over adult males. Exemplifying the difficulties that can result when a woman does not recognize her position, the apostle cites Eve’s case. She ran ahead of Adam, was deceived and came to be in transgression. (1 Timothy 2:11-14)
    Later in this same letter Paul cautioned Christian women about their activities. Some of the younger widows were “unoccupied, gadding about to the houses; yes, not only unoccupied, but also gossipers and meddlers in other people’s affairs, talking of things they ought not.” These activities could lead to all sorts of trouble, including getting involved in giving advice and making decisions on matters that were properly the responsibilities of husbands or appointed servants in the congregation. God did not create women to compete with men but to be in a supportive role. A Christian woman has no issues with this.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

    From now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none 1 Corinthians 7:29


    Again, in context this is speaking about the times. It is reminding those who take active roles in the congregation to put God's service first.
    So how should we view Paul’s statement? With the remaining time clearly reduced and the end near, God’s people need to live in accord with the Bible’s counsel. So Paul’s words at 1 Corinthians 7:29 say....."Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. From now on, let those who have wives be as though they had none".
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God. 1 Corinthians 7:40


    In context, Paul is speaking about singleness and how it is of benefit to those who want to serve God undistracted by concerns over a mate. For one who is widowed he had this recommendation.....
    "A wife is bound as long as her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep in death, she is free to be married to whomever she wants, only in the Lord. 40 But in my opinion, she is happier if she remains as she is; and I certainly think I also have God’s spirit."

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have to brag. There is nothing to be gained by it, but I must brag about the visions and other things that the Lord has shown me. I know about one of Christ's followers who was taken up into the third heaven 14 years ago. I don't know if the man was still in his body when it happened, but God certainly knows.
    As I said, only God really knows if this man was in his body at the time. But he was taken up into paradise, where he heard things too wonderful to tell. I will brag about that man, but not about myself, except to say how weak I am.
    2 Corinthians 12:1-5


    Writing to the Corinthian congregation, Paul stressed that God was using him as an apostle. He then mentioned “visions and revelations of the Lord.” Paul did not in that context mention other brothers. Thus, we believe that he was referring to himself as being the man who had received visions and revelations.

    So Paul was the one who was “caught away to the third heaven” and “caught away into paradise.” (2 Cor. 12:2-4) He used the term “revelations,” which suggests a revealing of what will exist in the future.


    Paul saw “the third heaven.” What was the point? The Bible occasionally repeats something three times for emphasis, to show intensity, or to imply added strength. It appears that in speaking of “the third heaven,” Paul was stressing a superlative, an exalted, form of rulership—the Messianic Kingdom by Christ. Since the "Paradise" is something yet future, we see that as a return to the original paradise conditions on earth. The Kingdom of God is a heavenly government with earthly subjects.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    I do not permit a woman to teach. 1 Timothy 2:9


    "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent."
    Women in the first century had a full understanding of God's headship arrangement. Right from the creation of Eve, women were to be a supportive complement to their husbands. Men were the appointed teachers and family heads. A woman was not permitted to teach in the congregation in Judaism either. It was not their place.
    So any woman who stood up to question something in the middle of a Christian meeting would have been an unnecessary distraction to everyone else. She was to remain silent at that time and any questions were to be addressed to her spiritual shepherds or her husband at a later time.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________

    We also gave you this rule: If you don't work, you don't eat. 2 Thessalonians 3:10


    Paul as an apostle, could have lived off the hospitality of the brotherhood as he worked hard for their spiritual prosperity, but Paul did not take advantage of that provision and worked as a tentmaker to earn his own keep.

    Verses 7-12 tell the story.....

    "For you yourselves know how you should imitate us, because we did not behave in a disorderly way among you, 8 nor did we eat anyone’s food free. On the contrary, by labor and toil we were working night and day so as not to impose an expensive burden on any one of you. 9 Not that we do not have authority, but we wanted to offer ourselves as an example for you to imitate. 10 In fact, when we were with you, we used to give you this order: “If anyone does not want to work, neither let him eat.” 11 For we hear that some are walking disorderly among you, not working at all, but meddling with what does not concern them. 12 To such people we give the order and exhortation in the Lord Jesus Christ that they should work quietly and eat food they themselves earn."

    Lazy people should expect others to feed them. Neither Judaism nor Christianity promoted a 'hand-out mentality. Both taught self-sufficiency. Both valued the dignity of hard work.

    I don't see anything Paul wrote as being bizarre in any way for the times in which he wrote them.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,560
    Ratings:
    +4,962
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    It is true that there were many prophetesses in ancient times. But prophesying is not teaching in the congregation. Women were not permitted to lead the congregations in worship, either in Judaism or Christianity. That does not mean that women had no place in God's arrangement. He highly valued women of faith who are mentioned by name in his word.

    "Prophesying was among the miraculous gifts of the spirit that were granted to the newly formed Christian congregation. Certain Christian women, such as Philip’s four virgin daughters, prophesied under the impulse of God’s holy spirit. (Acts of the Apostles 21:9; 1Corinthians 12:4, 10) This was in fulfillment of Joel 2:28, 29, which foretold that “your sons and your daughters will certainly prophesy.” (Acts of the Apostles 2:14-18) Such gift, however, did not remove a woman from subjection to the headship of her husband or to that of men within the Christian congregation; in symbol of her subjection she was to wear a head covering when prophesying (1Corinthians 11:3-6) and was not to act as a teacher within the congregation.—1Timothy 2:11-15; 1Corinthians 14:31-35."

    Prophetess — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2018
    Messages:
    3,976
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    Trust only God, no one else.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,563
    Ratings:
    +2,915
    Religion:
    Christian
    Timothy was a disciple of Paul.
     
  18. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,560
    Ratings:
    +4,962
    Religion:
    Christian JW
    Actually, John the Baptist was not put to death by the state, but by Herod at the behest of his illegitimate wife.
    Herod had taken the wife of his brother Phillip as his own, and John had spoken openly about the morality of the relationship. Herod's wife Herodias despised John and wanted him dead. When it was Herod's birthday celebration, her daughter's dancing so pleased the King that he vowed to give her whatever she asked.....when she consulted her mother, she was told to ask for the head of John the Baptist on a platter. It was personal. Herod could not go back on his word in front of all his attendees.

    Jesus too was not really put to death by the state either. Pilate found him not guilty of any capital crime and offered to release him. When the Jews threatened his political career, he washed his hands of the blood of Jesus and handed him over to the Jews. So in neither case was the state responsible for the murders. It was representatives of the state going against the law by executing innocent men for very personal reasons.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    9,563
    Ratings:
    +2,915
    Religion:
    Christian
    The Romans weren't the state?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2009
    Messages:
    22,701
    Ratings:
    +8,409
    Religion:
    Zen Buddhism
    It's certainly a fatal contradiction for Pauline Christianity.

    Matthew 24:23 shows the contradiction, if any apologists wants to deny it , then they'll have to say Christ had already came back in direct violation of the verse.

    Either way it screws up Christianity proper because they'll have to say Jesus did come back already and is not coming back anymore, or that Pauline Christianity is talking of an imposter Messiah invalidating the entire account of Paul.

    For me, it just shows unequivocally the Bible is not a divinely inspired work, and that it's just man made, like any other book or compliation that is out there.
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...