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Featured Bishop John Shelby Spong on Atonement Theology

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Sunstone, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. Father Heathen

    Father Heathen Veteran Member

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    Have you ever seen or heard of a documentary called "Jesus Camp"? It shows you just how insane some brands of Christianity in the U.S. really are. It also explains how we manage to elect some of the buffoons that we do.
     
  2. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    You assume much. The truth is you don't know me at all if you think all of that.
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    It is not the single cell that is infused with a soul, but the completed project, man.

    That brings up the question of why Jesus. The answer in this model, the Incarnation is considered God's action to right this original wrong. Redemption, then, is basically understood as a "buying back." God has even been described as demanding Jesus' suffering and death as a means of atonement—to satisfy and appease an angry God. It raises the question if thee would have been an incarnation if there were no sin. There is another model, an alternate view, that the Incarnation was the reason for creation.
    God is not an angry or vindictive God, demanding the suffering and death of Jesus as a payment for past sin. God is, instead, a gracious God, sharing divine life and love in creation and in the Incarnation.
    John's Gospel does not see Jesus' death as a ransom (unlike the synoptic Gospels, for example, Mark 10:45), nor does it use the language of sacrifice or atonement. There is, instead, emphasis on friendship, intimacy, mutuality, service, faithful love—revealing God's desire and gift for the full flourishing of humanity, or in other words, salvation (see the Farewell Address, John 13:1—17:26).

    God is love and created all life in order to communicate to creatures the fullness of divine love. The Incarnate Word is the foundation of the creative plan of God, the very reason for the existence of all creation.
     
  4. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    That just shows me that you don't care about it because if you did care about what Creationists were saying you'd Google it up and check it out. Why post a link when you're just going to say, "that's not science" or "that site isnt credible."
     
  5. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Bishop John Shelby Spong killed the Christian faith with this. He became satan's servant here with satan's gospel.

    He can do what he likes; if people follow him, they may just have become damned.
    Mineral rock soup evolving into all complex life on earth -- is true brainwashing. That people can say they believe this with a straight face really takes the cake. It's probably garlic cake anyway.
     
  6. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I can understand if people say they believe him. He's wrong but that doesn't stop people from gaining followers.

    What irks me is when these people try to tell me it's a fact when it definitely is not a fact.
     
  7. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Satan's servants wear many different business suits, some even come clothed in church garments.

    It seems to me that many of the high clergy have received education in Bible criticism combined with heavy evolution. This is not for building faith, but for tearing it down. The result in this case is clear to all.
     
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  8. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    I agree. When we go outside the word of God we are treading on the devil's turf.
     
  9. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Spong is absolutely correct but uggggh he just whines a lot in apocalyptic terms and says nothing. Obviously the church is dying but so is mother nature! Today so many, really really want to replace religion with science. Interestingly that is what the church thought it was being when the attonement theology developed in the first place, scientific!! . The church has an incredibly long history of the intellect getting lost in la la land.apparently today we believe we are long past that, we really understand and we don't need old mythos to guide us we have new mythos which is facts. Exactly like the church as it developed!! . I just hang out in the forest peering in, culture is a mess.
     
  10. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Oh please a totally self deceived self serving post.
     
  11. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    I have spent lots of time at a place called "the grotto" in portland oregon. Very cool place. It's a rarity something in traditional religion cones close to my experiences out in the wilderness. I believe it's Servite and is actually called the national sanctuary of our sorrowful mother.
     
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  12. Windwalker

    Windwalker Veteran Member
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    I don't think it is. Blood magic is not part of a modern mentality. It was a couple thousand years ago, obviously, but today, we just don't think in terms like that. It's a magical thinking hangover.

    I think we should get rid of it because it does not communicate higher truth. It's stuck in thinking of God as a type of vending machine, that you put the right coinage in to get it to spit out your reward token - "hey, you're saved now" fortune. It's a very immature mode of thinking we should not set as the highest standard of truth.

    The reason they should abandon it is because the more they espouse it, the more morons like Pat Robertson and Ken Ham sound like they have something to say. Period.
     
  13. Grandliseur

    Grandliseur Well-Known Member

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    Why do you even get involved. This is a supposed high member of a Christian denomination who is rejecting all scripture because 'evolution proves that it is false'. What kind of nonsense that you cannot recognize this as being against all Christians stand for.

    You have the right to your opinion about your own beliefs, but when it comes to our beliefs, stay out of our business. And, this guy is an apostate from God, from all inspired teaching, a servant of satan.

    So, kindly that this and stuff it where it belongs -- hopefully a painful place. Whether you serve satan or not, frankly, I don't care. But, you are not a representative of a Christian church, are you?!
     
  14. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    Evolution proves all scripture is false? What self deluding moron would ever read scripture in the way its actually independent of nature? Oh you and everyone else. Stop already with the word "belief" it's hypocrisy. It's not even Christian and it's basically used in biblical terms for babies. So please take the baby pacifier out of your mouth" I believe" and grow up. The text is no excuse to not grow up which apparently many in the faith love to us as an excuse. That just bleeds into every nook and cranny of culture, child. You are an immature poor excuse for an adult. I might get called on this post but I actually take the bible very very seriously I don't use it as an excuse "I believe" like that's some sacred temple. I also have a degree in theology so I am not unfamiliar with infantile behavior. Interestingly enough that's what spong says as well. He has challenged the church to grow up and at least on that point he is correct. How that happens is not up to any of us at all. I would say turn off the TV take a saunter in the wilderness it might break that nasty habit of "I beleive, I don't believe, I am agnostic". Three children confused. John Muir really isn't that difficult to read actually.
     
    #34 David T, Oct 14, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Because most "creationist" sites are not credible for reasons mentioned by many here. Now, most Christian theologians have no problem with the basic ToE as long as the belief is that God caused it all, such as what you can see here: Evolution and the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

    Here's a short piece from this:
    The Catholic Church holds no official position on the theory of creation or evolution, leaving the specifics of either theistic evolution or literal creationism to the individual within certain parameters established by the Church. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, any believer may accept either literal or special creation within the period of an actual six-day, twenty-four-hour period, or they may accept the belief that the earth evolved over time under the guidance of God. Catholicism holds that God initiated and continued the process of his evolutionary creation, that Adam and Eve were real people, and affirms that all humans, whether specially created or evolved, have and have always had specially created souls for each individual.

    Catholic schools in the United States and other countries teach evolution as part of their science curriculum. They teach the fact that evolution occurs and the modern evolutionary synthesis, which is the scientific theory that explains how evolution proceeds. This is the same evolution curriculum that secular schools teach. Bishop Francis X. DiLorenzo of Richmond, chair of the Committee on Science and Human Values, wrote in a letter sent to all U.S. bishops in December 2004: "Catholic schools should continue teaching evolution as a scientific theory backed by convincing evidence. At the same time, Catholic parents whose children are in public schools should ensure that their children are also receiving appropriate catechesis at home and in the parish on God as Creator. Students should be able to leave their biology classes, and their courses in religious instruction, with an integrated understanding of the means God chose to make us who we are..."


    See, one can have a belief in Jesus and God and at the same time recognize real science, not pseudo-science, and also accept reality and reason, plus they are certainly not the only Christian denomination that does so.

    So, I'm quite satisfied going to my wife's church that accepts reality and reason, plus being satisfied that I long ago left the fundamentalist Protestant church that I grew up in that taught pseudo-science and dishonesty. To this latter part ("dishonesty"), I'll write my next post.
     
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  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    A good friend of mine has been a Baptist (SBC) deacon for over 40 years, and he and I used to talk a lot about religious matters. He used to teach science at the high school level, including biology, and he fully accepted the basic ToE but also believed that God was behind it all. Trouble was and is that the SBC does not accept the ToE and has had purges to eliminate those pastors and deacons that may teach that as being real. Even though my friend wanted to leave his church and go to another Baptist church that was less restrictive along those lines, his wife was adamant that they should stay where they were-- much to his chagrin. So, he couldn't talk about evolution at all in front of the congregation or even behind closed doors with anyone in the church. so he vented with me on this and some other matters that were bothering him along that line.

    During one of our conversations, probably sometime in the early 1980's, we were talking about the ToE, and he reached in his drawer at his desk and pulled out a book that was entitled something like "Revolt of the Faithful". It was authored by a former Baptist minister who also had a t.v. ministry in one of the Southern states, and what upset the pastor enough to leave both was the results of a confidential survey that was taken amongst Baptist several years before.

    What the confidential survey showed was that amongst Baptist pastors, roughly 70% actually accepted the basic ToE as likely being accurate, but the vast majority of them (I don't recall that stat) could not openly talk about it in front of their congregation because of fear of being removed either by the heads of the conference/convention or by the congregation itself, much the same position my deacon friend was in. However, in this case, the pastor simply could not any longer be willing to avoid the subject or lie about it, so he left the Baptist church altogether.

    He goes on to say in the book that most of the pastors he knows personally just avoid talking about evolution and dread the thought of anyone in the congregation asking them a question about it. If asked, what do you do? lie? what?

    What I can't remember is where he said he went afterward, but I think it was with a more reason-oriented Christian denomination that's not anti-science. His disgust was certainly not with God nor Jesus but with the utter hypocrisy found within his own denomination.
     
  17. DavidFirth

    DavidFirth Well-Known Member

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    Opinion noted.
     
  18. Ponder This

    Ponder This Well-Known Member

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    Atonement theology isn't going anywhere.

    "Original Perfection" and "Evolution form a Single Cell" are irrelevant.

    As long as people believe that they are flawed right now, it doesn't matter if they believe in original perfection or a single-celled origin of all life. Those who acknowledge that they are flawed in whatever way or for whatever reason feel the desire to be perfect.

    You can't remove this aspiration by telling people that their guilt is illogical. Maybe that doesn't make sense to you, but the reality is that logic is only one aspect of what the mind comprehends. The soul wears these robes; it is not ruled by them.
     
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