Bird123 vs Link: "Is Hell a rational belief?"

[Link]

Salam

@Bird123 Welcome to the official debate. I look forward to a fruitful debate and dialogue with you.

Place of Vengeance, is it petty?

Vengeance is almost always a bad thing, it's almost always better to pardon, forgive, forbear, but it also has a proper place in virtue. In some scenarios, it's the proper response. So far I'm talking about humans. This premise will be probably disputed, so I will be bringing examples and evidence for that only after what I see my debate buddy has to say about that.

Traits and Aspects and descent of titles from God

One can say God transcends this even if humans have a need for it and a proper place. My response if humans can make a honorable act of it, and all honor and greatness is from God, then this manifests an aspect of God. If it does, it means there is a proper place. In fact, as every trait is limited in us, but unlimited in God, it means God is the most retributive and vengeful in it's proper place. But the proper place is only after trying to reach out with compassion and mercy.

Our wish for others to not to go to hell

This is probably what confuses most people the most. "O (intense) grief/regret over my servants, their does not come to them a Messenger...". God is NOT HAPPY about anyone entering hell. He hates to take the life of a disbeliever and hates to meet him. He doesn't like or enjoy punishing.

So why does he do it? Because of his vengeance and retributive justice.

When we look at people, we too should not want them to go to hell. We should want to encourage them or discourage them, in a way, that pushes them to good and away from evil out of mercy and compassion.

That compassion sometimes can be overwhelming and we begin to say, God won't punish. But this ignores retributive justice and vengeance has a place.

How can we enjoy paradise if loved ones go to hell, if friends go to hell, if so many go to hell

Sometimes the most painful things are the funniest out of the painful irony. This won't be easy to accept, yet we will be given a patience and travel to God in a way, we will in time, decrease attachment to those who fell.

Hell never meant to exist

I'm going to say, if God created hell knowing a person will go there with certainty when he created. It would be evil. Actually, even if it was probable that it comes to exist it would be evil. The creation of hell is accidental and started off with little probability it would come. It came about when things starting going haywire.

Of course, the fallen world, if it was probable many or most go to hell, would be evil to create too. But things went haywire and people didn't follow Adam's (s) successors. Since then, we weren't able to cure the disease of insincerity. Even saved believers, they almost always became ungrateful after being saved from their oppressors, just as children of Israel began to dispute with Musa (a) and Haroun (a) and disobeyed and killed Prophets (a).

Majority humans can still avoid hell

There is still a chance most humans won't go there. This is not too much related, but God tries us with wanting to guide humans and help them avoid hell. The people of knowledge are in intense grief due to it while ignorant people chase the dunya and don't care what society does.

We still can save majority of most humans from it. God doesn't want majority going into it still but in this world, we effect each other and then are held accountable for it in the next.

 

[Bird123]

Salam

@Bird123 Welcome to the official debate. I look forward to a fruitful debate and dialogue with you.

Place of Vengeance, is it petty?

Vengeance is almost always a bad thing, it's almost always better to pardon, forgive, forbear, but it also has a proper place in virtue. In some scenarios, it's the proper response. So far I'm talking about humans. This premise will be probably disputed, so I will be bringing examples and evidence for that only after what I see my debate buddy has to say about that.

Traits and Aspects and descent of titles from God

One can say God transcends this even if humans have a need for it and a proper place. My response if humans can make a honorable act of it, and all honor and greatness is from God, then this manifests an aspect of God. If it does, it means there is a proper place. In fact, as every trait is limited in us, but unlimited in God, it means God is the most retributive and vengeful in it's proper place. But the proper place is only after trying to reach out with compassion and mercy.

Our wish for others to not to go to hell

This is probably what confuses most people the most. "O (intense) grief/regret over my servants, their does not come to them a Messenger...". God is NOT HAPPY about anyone entering hell. He hates to take the life of a disbeliever and hates to meet him. He doesn't like or enjoy punishing.

So why does he do it? Because of his vengeance and retributive justice.

When we look at people, we too should not want them to go to hell. We should want to encourage them or discourage them, in a way, that pushes them to good and away from evil out of mercy and compassion.

That compassion sometimes can be overwhelming and we begin to say, God won't punish. But this ignores retributive justice and vengeance has a place.

How can we enjoy paradise if loved ones go to hell, if friends go to hell, if so many go to hell

Sometimes the most painful things are the funniest out of the painful irony. This won't be easy to accept, yet we will be given a patience and travel to God in a way, we will in time, decrease attachment to those who fell.

Hell never meant to exist

I'm going to say, if God created hell knowing a person will go there with certainty when he created. It would be evil. Actually, even if it was probable that it comes to exist it would be evil. The creation of hell is accidental and started off with little probability it would come. It came about when things starting going haywire.

Of course, the fallen world, if it was probable many or most go to hell, would be evil to create too. But things went haywire and people didn't follow Adam's (s) successors. Since then, we weren't able to cure the disease of insincerity. Even saved believers, they almost always became ungrateful after being saved from their oppressors, just as children of Israel began to dispute with Musa (a) and Haroun (a) and disobeyed and killed Prophets (a).

Majority humans can still avoid hell

There is still a chance most humans won't go there. This is not too much related, but God tries us with wanting to guide humans and help them avoid hell. The people of knowledge are in intense grief due to it while ignorant people chase the dunya and don't care what society does.

We still can save majority of most humans from it. God doesn't want majority going into it still but in this world, we effect each other and then are held accountable for it in the next.

So you are saying Hell is an accidental creation of God. Do you really think that is possible?

What purpose does Hell serve? Why has it been created? Where is the justice in Hell? Is creating Hell really an Intelligent act?

In reality, Hell is a creation of mankind. It's concept is used to intimidate people to follow that religion.

Hell does not exist. Why not? It is not an Intelligent thing to do. It is not a Higher Level of thinking or acting. Hell stems from the petty ideas mankind holds so dear. Hell reflects mankind more than everything else. If one wants Hell to exist then one values those petty things mankind holds so dear.

I know you believe so much in holy book stories, however they are merely stories written by mankind. It's best to go by what actually IS, rather than beliefs.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

So you are saying Hell is an accidental creation of God. Do you really think that is possible?

What purpose does Hell serve? Why has it been created? Where is the justice in Hell? Is creating Hell really an Intelligent act?

Salam

Yes accidental and intelligent act, God created it when unexpectedly one of his Angels disobeyed him and then wanted to lead others astray instead of repenting. It also would serve as a warning and way to keep humans and Jinn from going astray (potentially).

When things started to go haywire, with Adam (a) disobeying, God created this fallen world, with limited time, so that our time though limited becomes infinitely meaningful. If we are good, God will be good to us. If we are evil, we will reap our actions and since our actions are linked to knowing we will die, and our time is temporary, but the next world is forever, they have infinite value.

If we ignore our duty and chase lower Satanic world and are defeated, there are different levels of falling, but we will face the consequences of our actions.

The thing is hell exists in this world, but not in full form. Our actions are linked to God in a way that God is Unseen and alone knows the unseen and alone knows the reality of our actions, yet has given us winds that warn us of our actions and state, and if ignore the guilt type judgment, we will face consequences.

Heaven also breezes winds if we do good, and we can get rewarded with lights with our actions and come to see God and become close to him in this world, but this is nothing compared to the how the next world is and how close that world is to God and how everything is meant to make us guided to God, in the words of Musa (a) about the next world "for then we are guided to you".

Also, this concept of REFORMING AFTER DEATH IS IMPOSSIBLE. I don't mean to yell, but I want to highlight this as it's very important.

If God can reform us after death then maybe hell is meaningless act of vengeance. But if we go blind to the unseen world, we will reject God's Angels same reason we reject God's Prophets in this world. We will hold on to unseen entities we find beautiful but are ugly, just as we found the elite servants of God and their followers ugly, while their enemies beautiful. The confusion won't cease.

Then day of judgment comes, and we might want to return. But if we return now with full memory and certainty, we can't have any will out of love. It will be too late to love God. The other side is if we return with little vivid memory, just recalling it a bit. Well, we promised God before we would be sincere to him before we came to this world but chose to neglect that, so what guarantee, now that we've become more evil, can we have to reform if forgetting? No, it becomes impossible.

This is why God out of his wisdom, has put a very short time, so we get stressed about our end results. This should pressure us to become good and avoid becoming evil.

Of course, he can't make it vividly obvious, as that will have same result of day of judgment and it being too late.

So he sent warnings unseen and seen, to make us recall hell and heaven, and potentially awaken to the reality of day of judgment that we are connected to in unseen way. However, to get certainty in vision, it would take some power of love. That is the nature of faith of God's signs, since God's proof to a degree is hidden and unseen, "those who believe in the hidden" (2:3).

 

[Bird123]

Salam

Yes accidental and intelligent act, God created it when unexpectedly one of his Angels disobeyed him and then wanted to lead others astray instead of repenting. It also would serve as a warning and way to keep humans and Jinn from going astray (potentially).

When things started to go haywire, with Adam (a) disobeying, God created this fallen world, with limited time, so that our time though limited becomes infinitely meaningful. If we are good, God will be good to us. If we are evil, we will reap our actions and since our actions are linked to knowing we will die, and our time is temporary, but the next world is forever, they have infinite value.

If we ignore our duty and chase lower Satanic world and are defeated, there are different levels of falling, but we will face the consequences of our actions.

The thing is hell exists in this world, but not in full form. Our actions are linked to God in a way that God is Unseen and alone knows the unseen and alone knows the reality of our actions, yet has given us winds that warn us of our actions and state, and if ignore the guilt type judgment, we will face consequences.

Heaven also breezes winds if we do good, and we can get rewarded with lights with our actions and come to see God and become close to him in this world, but this is nothing compared to the how the next world is and how close that world is to God and how everything is meant to make us guided to God, in the words of Musa (a) about the next world "for then we are guided to you".

Also, this concept of REFORMING AFTER DEATH IS IMPOSSIBLE. I don't mean to yell, but I want to highlight this as it's very important.

If God can reform us after death then maybe hell is meaningless act of vengeance. But if we go blind to the unseen world, we will reject God's Angels same reason we reject God's Prophets in this world. We will hold on to unseen entities we find beautiful but are ugly, just as we found the elite servants of God and their followers ugly, while their enemies beautiful. The confusion won't cease.

Then day of judgment comes, and we might want to return. But if we return now with full memory and certainty, we can't have any will out of love. It will be too late to love God. The other side is if we return with little vivid memory, just recalling it a bit. Well, we promised God before we would be sincere to him before we came to this world but chose to neglect that, so what guarantee, now that we've become more evil, can we have to reform if forgetting? No, it becomes impossible.

This is why God out of his wisdom, has put a very short time, so we get stressed about our end results. This should pressure us to become good and avoid becoming evil.

Of course, he can't make it vividly obvious, as that will have same result of day of judgment and it being too late.

So he sent warnings unseen and seen, to make us recall hell and heaven, and potentially awaken to the reality of day of judgment that we are connected to in unseen way. However, to get certainty in vision, it would take some power of love. That is the nature of faith of God's signs, since God's proof to a degree is hidden and unseen, "those who believe in the hidden" (2:3).

I see you are wrapped up in Stories written by mankind. You greatly underestimate God. If God can create Universes, what are a few wayward children. It has never been an issue.

What is more important; Punishment or Solving the Real Problems? Your Hell makes God like mankind. Mankind destroys and discards that which is not easily fixed. Would not a Being of a Higher Level choose fixing His Children, solving the Real Problems rather than Disown, Discard or Fry His children?

The question remains: Does your god come up lacking if He did not know an Angel's move before hand? Further, If your god was lacking, could not Hell be destroyed after it was created to guaranty no child was fried or abandoned?

Once again, you must reach for a Higher Level of thinking and see. Allowing Hell to even exist is not a viable choice any Higher Level Being could ever choose simply because it is not an Intelligent choice. Hell will never bring the best results.

A Being capable of creating Universes is Very Very Smart. You are going to have to expand and stretch your thinking to Understand what is really going on and the Intelligence level of what God is doing.

Mankind creates rules and laws in an attempt to Control the actions of others. You and mankind are assuming God is doing the very same thing. Nothing is further from the truth. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will choose the best choices. When one reaches a certain level of Intelligence, there will be no need for rules, laws, and enforcement of any kind. This is the level where one will be able to create a Heavenly state for oneself and others.

God's system teaches everyone all sides, in time. God's system also teaches everyone to Love Unconditionally. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. It is a key ingredient to learn in order for a Heavenly state to exist.

Since, in time, everyone will choose the Best choices, there is no need to define good and evil. There is no need to judge, condemn, and hate others as evil. There is no need to value Blame and create a Devil as an excuse for bad choices.

We were never ever meant to never make bad choices. More is learned through bad choices than almost any other thing. Do you ever remember saying to yourself: "I'll never do that again!!""

God hides nothing. All the secrets of the Universe and God stare us all in the face. There has never been a need for holy books.

An action of God: God does not just give knowledge out. Why not? God knows wisdom is acquired along the journey to Discover Knowledge.

Religion is mankind's attempt to Understand God. The knowledge they are missing is patched with beliefs and stories to patch the gap of missing information.

I have found no religion that really Understands God at all. Most religions reflect mankind more than anything else. Your case in point is the story of Hell, fallen angels, creating a we against they, leading to all those petty things mankind holds so dear. This leads away from a Higher Level, Greater Intelligence and God.

Everything about God will add up perfectly. Can you really say all your stories add up perfectly? If you can, you surely do not question them enough. Blindly accepting will not deliver the Real Truth.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Would not a Being of a Higher Level choose fixing His Children, solving the Real Problems rather than Disown, Discard or Fry His children?

From what I understand. God created hell and heaven as mechanism to pressure us to fix ourselves. In this way life has infinite meaning, good or bad. If it was possible to fix us after death, without this, then you would have a point. I don't believe it's possible. When a soul sees the truth beyond doubt and knows consequences of actions, it's too late. The actions are no longer meaningful at that point.

The question remains: Does your god come up lacking if He did not know an Angel's move before hand?

No, the probability was that Iblis would obey or at least repent if disobeying. He knew it was possible, but knowing the future would mean God wrote fate which is not a virtue.

Mankind creates rules and laws in an attempt to Control the actions of others. You and mankind are assuming God is doing the very same thing. Nothing is further from the truth.

God having the wisdom he has would attempt to guide creation. However, we are straying off-topic with this.

Since, in time, everyone will choose the Best choices, there is no need to define good and evil.

I don't believe this is possible. If it was, you might have a point. The reason it's impossible is because people need to see their actions. They won't see them unless with full proof. The proof if shown to them to that extent, their actions are no longer meaningful at that point and so too late to reform.

The problem is getting an arrogant soul to admit it's fault. God can do that, but only when he subdues them, but at that point, their actions are not worthwhile and won't reform them anymore.

Otherwise, death as a pressure with heaven or hell as the result, is best way to force reformation and repentance.

Another thing is you are assuming vengeance is petty. Why do you assume this is the case? Why do we have the trait if it's totally useless and not for any good?

 

[Bird123]

From what I understand. God created hell and heaven as mechanism to pressure us to fix ourselves. In this way life has infinite meaning, good or bad. If it was possible to fix us after death, without this, then you would have a point. I don't believe it's possible. When a soul sees the truth beyond doubt and knows consequences of actions, it's too late. The actions are no longer meaningful at that point.



No, the probability was that Iblis would obey or at least repent if disobeying. He knew it was possible, but knowing the future would mean God wrote fate which is not a virtue.





God having the wisdom he has would attempt to guide creation. However, we are straying off-topic with this.




I don't believe this is possible. If it was, you might have a point. The reason it's impossible is because people need to see their actions. They won't see them unless with full proof. The proof if shown to them to that extent, their actions are no longer meaningful at that point and so too late to reform.

The problem is getting an arrogant soul to admit it's fault. God can do that, but only when he subdues them, but at that point, their actions are not worthwhile and won't reform them anymore.

Otherwise, death as a pressure with heaven or hell as the result, is best way to force reformation and repentance.

Another thing is you are assuming vengeance is petty. Why do you assume this is the case? Why do we have the trait if it's totally useless and not for any good?

You see death as an end. Death has never been an end. It is merely a Change.
You say, once dead one can never learn. This is not true. When one dies, one goes to God to experience God's Unconditional Love. It is a Love that feels so good and so complete that it heals all hurt.

One wants to be just like God. This is the point of judgment. One sees where one is and where one needs to be. Each will judge themselves.

Who knows how long one basks in God's Unconditional Love, however there comes a point where kiddies must go back to school. One is placed in a new physical body to continue the learning and growing. There is no time limit on learning or number of lives.

You say God pressures people. Like mankind, you think it terms of might, power, forcing and ruling. This is not God. You must think at a Higher Level. Love is probably the most powerful thing. On the other hand, in time, even the most arrogant will Discover that the only real viable choice is Unconditional Love.

Free will is an important part of God's system. Unlike religion, God will never intimidate, coerce, threaten, hate, judge, condemn, blame or any of those petty things.

Each through their choices will learn all sides. At this point, Intelligence will make the Best choices. Since one arrived here with choices only of their own, they will truly advance to the Higher Level of Intelligence.

Mankind does not Understand what all these petty things really are. If one chooses to follow mankind, one can not advance until mankind does.

What does vengeance serve? If I hate, you hate back. If I seek vengeance, you seek vengeance back. Round and round until the Intelligent person ends the circle with Unconditional Love. At this point issues can be addressed, solutions can be found, and resolution can be achieved. In short, Vengeance is petty and will never lead to the best results.

What does Repentance serve? Isn't it no more than an emotional release that makes the one repenting feel better about themselves?

Love means never having to say you're sorry. God's joy does not come from one saying one is sorry. God's joy comes from knowing one of His children has learned and grown toward a Higher Level. God's Greatest Moment is when that light bulb goes off over one of His children's head and they Understand. This can be about any subject!!

You make the statement about getting an arrogant fool to admit it's fault. Let's look at that: Petty 1. You are upset because you value control. When you can't, you are angry. God doesn't control. God sets it up so one will Discover for oneself then choose to change for oneself because it is the most intelligent thing to do.

Petty 2.Blame. What returns when you point Blame? How do you react when others Blame you?? What is more Important Blame or Fixing the problems. Which is more Important to God??

So many in religion paint God as a Ruling, Controlling, Judging, Condemning, and Punishing. God is far too Intelligent to be like mankind. These petty things just give mankind an excuse to Hate. Further, when mankind can not control, all the petty things of Hate, Anger, Judging, Condemning increase. What ever happened to Fixing the problems? Give these petty things and they just return. Where is that Heavenly State??? Where is the Intelligence?? I see none!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Salam

Your view: unlimited lives and times to get it right
My view: soul once it becomes evil, and comes back to this world, will be more likely to become evil each time and will come with a more evil nature, its only chance is the first life with death. Once it has lied to itself and become untruthful, it will lie even more each promise and time to get it right. Become more intensified in its lying nature over time with many lives. If it fails the first promise to God, it will fail the ones to come once its fallen even more so.

Your view: unconditional love from God will heal the person and they will judge themselves
My view: Only day of judgment type proofs will subdue an arrogant soul to the truth of its actions and then its too late and it won't be able to love anymore freely

So we see belief in hell being rational is contingent on these two facts.

If a soul can't be reformed at a point, creating hell and paradise to be the result of a limited time on earth, is drastic action, not saying its easy, but from a rational point of view, if you are wrong about unlimited lives reforming souls and I am right about that (a big if I understand), and same with love healing a person after death, and rather, the arrogant soul has to be subdued with proof of God's power and the truth they hated and be removed doubt forcefully, then hell fire rationally seems a good deterrence.

The only thing is vengeance. To me, an example of good use of vengeance is what Mukhtar and those under his command sought revenge for Imam Hussain (a). This motivation was good, and also, it has good results. Things got better due to that act on vengeance for Muslims in general. This is a historical event you can study and see that in fact, if all Muslims sought vengeance for Imam Hussain (a) and others oppressed, to their tyrant rulers, things would have been better for all Muslims today.

And to me, there is a purpose of humans having feel of justice and vengeance. And every good usage stems from God's light and every virtue is found in God's oneness to the ultimate usage and application of it .God is the most forgiving and pardoning and merciful but only in the place of these things. He is also the most retributive and vengeful but only in the proper place of punishment and justice.

Its scary that vengeance exists in a virtuous manner in us itself, but what is more scary, is that it exists in ultimate form and perfect form as well.

 

[Link]

Peace @Bird123 Do you want to continue the debate?

I just wanted to add, the physical punishments are severe but pale in comparison to the light burning darkness type pain. So God warned of physical punishments which pale to that, so that we avoid it. He won't break promise about them.

But the light burning darkness would occur eventually to all evil souls, there is no avoiding coming to this reality. Day of judgment speeds up the process and greats a drama effect for justice and for mankind to be judged together once and for all. It's with witnesses, our body parts, etc, different things testifying, but it's also a very long day (50 000 years when we return to God and still things happen after that).

So really I didn't make a good case previously because I sought to prove God would exact vengeance if he can save souls. I've gained wisdom in this regard. The punishment is something God is doing his best to make us avoid.

I can elaborate further of why this is the case. Keep in mind hell exists in all worlds including this one, but it's reality gets augmented as we return to the source.

The wisdom of day of judgment is to establish proofs in best manner and so that believers know God has done justice and don't doubt the exalted leaders and the judgment of God they will implement.

 

[Bird123]

Peace @Bird123 Do you want to continue the debate?

I just wanted to add, the physical punishments are severe but pale in comparison to the light burning darkness type pain. So God warned of physical punishments which pale to that, so that we avoid it. He won't break promise about them.

But the light burning darkness would occur eventually to all evil souls, there is no avoiding coming to this reality. Day of judgment speeds up the process and greats a drama effect for justice and for mankind to be judged together once and for all. It's with witnesses, our body parts, etc, different things testifying, but it's also a very long day (50 000 years when we return to God and still things happen after that).

So really I didn't make a good case previously because I sought to prove God would exact vengeance if he can save souls. I've gained wisdom in this regard. The punishment is something God is doing his best to make us avoid.

I can elaborate further of why this is the case. Keep in mind hell exists in all worlds including this one, but it's reality gets augmented as we return to the source.

The wisdom of day of judgment is to establish proofs in best manner and so that believers know God has done justice and don't doubt the exalted leaders and the judgment of God they will implement.

So, a Highly Intelligent Being creates it all. Does One with such Great Intelligence need to use threats and intimidation? Aren't there better ways?

How does punishment serve God? What is being accomplished? Do you want to punish others? Do you want Hell to exist? Do you want God to punish others for you? Is your desire for punishment to exist created out of a need to control the actions and choices of others? Do you want to punish others who will not make the choices you make?

If you are using threats, intimidation, or pain in order to alter the actions and choices of others, what are you teaching your children and those around you? Is this really a Higher Level a Being of High Intelligence would choose? I think not!! I wouldn't. Would you?

Our choices and actions speak to who we are. Is this really the way you want to define yourself? Is this really the way a Being of High Intelligence would define Themselves? If I will not define myself like this, am I at a Higher Level than a God who would? How can God lack such true Intelligence if that is so??

Religions are creations of mankind. So much is said about God that simply isn't true. God will never coerce, threaten or intimidate anyone's choices in any way. Why not? If one is not free to choose, one will choose the opposite just as soon as one has the freedom to choose in order to Discover what the other choice means. With this in mind, what can be learned through being coerced, threatened or intimidated? It certainly isn't goodness or a Higher Level.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Peace

So, a Highly Intelligent Being creates it all. Does One with such Great Intelligence need to use threats and intimidation? Aren't there better ways?

The way I understand, is at first, he did not. Even humans were not meant to come to be. The first plan was create his creation as Angels who reality is closer to God and who have easier time seeing God.

God knew of the possibility of them becoming arrogant, but it was not the expected outcome. So plan B to humble them, created humans as a trial and put the most exalted spirits in the humans. Back before that, not even Ahlulbayt (a) knew they would become humans.

When God revealed his plan, Angels first protested but when told God knows more and the proof of Adam (a) knowledge was proven, and his chosen status proven, all submit but one.

Iblis than was extended God's words and told "Are you arrogant or are you of the exalted ones?". Since he was not one of Ahlulbayt - the exalted ones - he was arrogant. But he continued.

It was NOT MEANT TO HAPPEN. Iblis was the first to be promised and threatened with hell, but he didn't change his ways.

Adam (a) being God's elite, all probability was he would not look towards the blessed tree and envy them but instead reach out to them when Satan would whisper, and not seek to take their position. But despite the deceptions he believed which was unworthy of his station to forget the truth he was taught, he was not resolved in disobedience. Though his chosen status remained proven through that, the trials of mankind had to begin at this point.

Now God could've made it that Adam be of light fire nature so bright that all Angels including Iblis would be amazed.

To save us from going on track of Iblis - God created life and death - a time ticker, with infinite everlasting reward for the good and everlasting punishment for the evil.

The expected thing was humanity would unite on the chosen ones and guidance from God. But the disease from Nuh's (a) people lingered towards believers saved, and generation to generation, when God would save believers from oppressors, they turned ungrateful, till children of Israel were saved by Moses (a) but they rebelled against him and against his successors (a) and questioned the miracles.

Mohammad's (s) companions were trained well, and went through severe trials, it was unexpected of them not to come to the aide of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) right away. Some remain steadfast, others didn't.

And so, the story continues. He threatens hell because there is no avoiding it if we become evil. And promises paradise, because goodness is the reward of goodness.

The alternative would be to put to death evil people and make them disappear, but I believe this LESS MERCIFUL then to punish them, although they would wish to disappear, it's still better to be alive then not.

If there was a mechanism to reform souls other than what God has being doing and to save mankind and Jinn from the evil disease of one generation to another, I believe God would do it.

It's not about "force"-we can choose so many things as long as we choose to be good. There is no forcing career path nor how to serve God's cause. There are some universal requirements, but most of life remains a choice. The choice of being evil however is unacceptable.

 

[Link]

Peace,

How does punishment serve God? What is being accomplished? Do you want to punish others? Do you want Hell to exist? Do you want God to punish others for you

God hates to punish. It does not bring him pleasure. I wish there was no hell, heck I wish there was no humans, and we all were Angels worshiping God and we all were humble and sincere in that. Wish this world of trial didn't come about.

 

[Bird123]

Peace


The way I understand, is at first, he did not. Even humans were not meant to come to be. The first plan was create his creation as Angels who reality is closer to God and who have easier time seeing God.

God knew of the possibility of them becoming arrogant, but it was not the expected outcome. So plan B to humble them, created humans as a trial and put the most exalted spirits in the humans. Back before that, not even Ahlulbayt (a) knew they would become humans.

When God revealed his plan, Angels first protested but when told God knows more and the proof of Adam (a) knowledge was proven, and his chosen status proven, all submit but one.

Iblis than was extended God's words and told "Are you arrogant or are you of the exalted ones?". Since he was not one of Ahlulbayt - the exalted ones - he was arrogant. But he continued.

It was NOT MEANT TO HAPPEN. Iblis was the first to be promised and threatened with hell, but he didn't change his ways.

Adam (a) being God's elite, all probability was he would not look towards the blessed tree and envy them but instead reach out to them when Satan would whisper, and not seek to take their position. But despite the deceptions he believed which was unworthy of his station to forget the truth he was taught, he was not resolved in disobedience. Though his chosen status remained proven through that, the trials of mankind had to begin at this point.

Now God could've made it that Adam be of light fire nature so bright that all Angels including Iblis would be amazed.

To save us from going on track of Iblis - God created life and death - a time ticker, with infinite everlasting reward for the good and everlasting punishment for the evil.

The expected thing was humanity would unite on the chosen ones and guidance from God. But the disease from Nuh's (a) people lingered towards believers saved, and generation to generation, when God would save believers from oppressors, they turned ungrateful, till children of Israel were saved by Moses (a) but they rebelled against him and against his successors (a) and questioned the miracles.

Mohammad's (s) companions were trained well, and went through severe trials, it was unexpected of them not to come to the aide of Ali (a) and Fatima (a) right away. Some remain steadfast, others didn't.

And so, the story continues. He threatens hell because there is no avoiding it if we become evil. And promises paradise, because goodness is the reward of goodness.

The alternative would be to put to death evil people and make them disappear, but I believe this LESS MERCIFUL then to punish them, although they would wish to disappear, it's still better to be alive then not.

If there was a mechanism to reform souls other than what God has being doing and to save mankind and Jinn from the evil disease of one generation to another, I believe God would do it.

It's not about "force"-we can choose so many things as long as we choose to be good. There is no forcing career path nor how to serve God's cause. There are some universal requirements, but most of life remains a choice. The choice of being evil however is unacceptable.

These are no more than Stories. It is not reality. You underestimate God if you think God is acting as you say. God has much Greater Wisdom. God has much Greater Knowledge. God has Greater ways of doing things How can you even think that God acts like mankind for that is who you describe>

God is at a Higher Level! God fixes all the kiddies in time. Even the most evil people will learn what choices will bring the best results. In time, all the kiddies will learn that all those petty things mankind holds so dear will not bring the best results and one could never create a Heavenly state for themselves and others incorporating them.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Bird123]

Peace,

God hates to punish. It does not bring him pleasure. I wish there was no hell, heck I wish there was no humans, and we all were Angels worshiping God and we all were humble and sincere in that. Wish this world of trial didn't come about.

You think like mankind. You value so many of the petty things mankind holds so dear. They will not bring you happiness. They will not bring you the Best results!!

It has never ever been about Worshiping. It has never ever been about Punishment, Payback, Revenge, Anger, Wrath or even being Humble. There is no Hate! There is no Hell!! There are no Trials!! It's only Education at it's Best!!

People think God as a Mighty Ruler. That is mankind thinking. This universe and world was never created for God. It was created for US. Why? The time-based causal nature of the universe is Perfect for Learning. It has never ever been about Ruling and Controlling!!

Through your stories, all I see is you pointing fingers. He did this. They did that. Don't you understand? It doesn't matter what everyone else does. It's what you choose to do that counts. Each person's choices and actions show God and the world what you know and what you need to learn. Our choices and actions generate our lessons. That is God's system in place.

So do you choose Blaming, Judging,Condemning, We are good;They are bad, Punishing, Anger, Wrath, Payback, Revenge, Ruling, Controlling, Coercing, Intimidating, Manipulating, and Hate? What do you think returns in the form of lessons when you do? God will teach you what your actions and choices really mean.

Maybe, one can choose to see the good in others. One can nurture that goodness with Unconditional Love pointing others to that Higher Level. Fix the problems with Knowledge, Wisdom, Unconditional Love and Kindness. What returns then?

We define ourselves through our choices and actions. Perhaps, one should always Think before one acts. Is this really how I want to define myself? It surely will bring better results that simply reacting to everyone and everything around us.

So much is said about God that simply isn't true. When you hear something, ask yourself. Is this really the actions of High Intelligence??? God adds up. Beliefs generated by mankind rarely do.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Peace,

Can you elaborate how life is just a lesson? How do we truly learn from it. To me no reward no punishment makes life in vain and good and evil false.

 

[Link]

Peace,

If there is no consequence to our actions, one of the lessons we would be learning, is that it was okay to oppress others and God won't hold us accountable. How is that rational?

 

[Link]

Salam @Bird123

I wrote this in another thread:

I would imagine if God knew a way to reform every soul he would. He could've gave every soul it's guidance as a guarantee without trial and a world without much meaning, but I'm talking about the world as is now. It's impossible, and I don't think reincarnation has a mechanism, but rather, due to evil not due to being lack of knowledge primarily, they would return to evil and more of it, the more they fall. And if a soul knows the truth like it will on the day of judgment, it's too late to reform if it hated the truth till that point, because fear of God has no unseen element and it's impossible to love at that point.

The pressure cooker of life and death and hell and heaven and barzakh and day of judgment is the best bet.

God expresses intense grief for his servants who mocked the Messengers in Surah Yaseen.

This thread:

I think we should talk if the mechanism of reincarnation or something else, can actually reform a soul. I think the Quran argues once liar, returning to this world, they will return to evil and break whatever the pledge just like they broke the pledge when on a clean slate.

 

[Bird123]

Salam @Bird123

I wrote this in another thread:

I would imagine if God knew a way to reform every soul he would. He could've gave every soul it's guidance as a guarantee without trial and a world without much meaning, but I'm talking about the world as is now. It's impossible, and I don't think reincarnation has a mechanism, but rather, due to evil not due to being lack of knowledge primarily, they would return to evil and more of it, the more they fall. And if a soul knows the truth like it will on the day of judgment, it's too late to reform if it hated the truth till that point, because fear of God has no unseen element and it's impossible to love at that point.

The pressure cooker of life and death and hell and heaven and barzakh and day of judgment is the best bet.

God expresses intense grief for his servants who mocked the Messengers in Surah Yaseen.

This thread:

I think we should talk if the mechanism of reincarnation or something else, can actually reform a soul. I think the Quran argues once liar, returning to this world, they will return to evil and break whatever the pledge just like they broke the pledge when on a clean slate.

Have you ever lied and the results pushed you toward truth? Have you ever been around a person and just the way they are changed you? Example: Look how many people Martin Luther King changed. He did not change others by hating, condemning, sending anyone to Hell, punishing, payback, revenge, ruling, controlling,coercing, intimidating or a we against they. Did not evil people change at all? When people called in hate to him, he would say: WE Love you but we must change.

Is there really no other way than Hate, Condemning, Judging, and Hell???? Doesn't the way stare us in the face? Doesn't it just wait to be chosen? Isn't Unconditional Love within the reach of us all? I think so!!

People like to see Might as powerful. From what I have seen, nothing is more Powerful than LOVE!!

God is very very smart. Don't you think God already knows this as well??


One can judge others but doesn't the best results happen when one judges oneself after acquiring understanding? Isn't that when change happens? Why do you insist there really exists people who can never change? Is this just an excuse to hate and hurt or maybe return a hate and hurt one received? Does this create a Heavenly state for anyone?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

Have you ever lied and the results pushed you toward truth? Have you ever been around a person and just the way they are changed you? Example: Look how many people Martin Luther King changed. He did not change others by hating, condemning, sending anyone to Hell, punishing, payback, revenge, ruling, controlling,coercing, intimidating or a we against they. Did not evil people change at all? When people called in hate to him, he would say: WE Love you but we must change.

Is there really no other way than Hate, Condemning, Judging, and Hell???? Doesn't the way stare us in the face? Doesn't it just wait to be chosen? Isn't Unconditional Love within the reach of us all? I think so!!

People like to see Might as powerful. From what I have seen, nothing is more Powerful than LOVE!!

God is very very smart. Don't you think God already knows this as well??


One can judge others but doesn't the best results happen when one judges oneself after acquiring understanding? Isn't that when change happens? Why do you insist there really exists people who can never change? Is this just an excuse to hate and hurt or maybe return a hate and hurt one received? Does this create a Heavenly state for anyone?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

Salam

I think some people do change of course. I think many souls however as long as it's unseen they won't change. But when they know themselves in full view, it's too late. If they go back to unseen (forget), they won't change. So this the predicament.

I think the best bet to change is in life of this world, with death as pressure cooker.

So of course there are some souls that do change, it does not mean all will change to good.

 

[Bird123]

Salam

I think some people do change of course. I think many souls however as long as it's unseen they won't change. But when they know themselves in full view, it's too late. If they go back to unseen (forget), they won't change. So this the predicament.

I think the best bet to change is in life of this world, with death as pressure cooker.

So of course there are some souls that do change, it does not mean all will change to good.

You are right. Do not put off until tomorrow what one can do today. On the other hand, take away the limits of one mere lifetime along with the infinite diversity of interaction with others, can't everyone learn to create that Heavenly state for themselves and others?

What have you Discovered in your life that could never be a viable choice you could ever make again? Isn't that everyone, even those learning lessons you already have learned are not viable choices you could ever choose? You see when you take away the anger, hurt, condemning, punishing, payback and revenge, it leaves the Math of it all. Everyone is salvageable. Would not the Greatest of High Intelligence salvage all the kiddies regardless of those bad choices? I know if they were my children, that is what I would do. How about you??? What else are you doing with Eternity??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Link]

You are right. Do not put off until tomorrow what one can do today. On the other hand, take away the limits of one mere lifetime along with the infinite diversity of interaction with others, can't everyone learn to create that Heavenly state for themselves and others?

What have you Discovered in your life that could never be a viable choice you could ever make again? Isn't that everyone, even those learning lessons you already have learned are not viable choices you could ever choose? You see when you take away the anger, hurt, condemning, punishing, payback and revenge, it leaves the Math of it all. Everyone is salvageable. Would not the Greatest of High Intelligence salvage all the kiddies regardless of those bad choices? I know if they were my children, that is what I would do. How about you??? What else are you doing with Eternity??

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

God could've set up that evil is impossible. But not in a way that meaningful value can be instilled to most.

We know in the world there is evil and so that set up didn't happen. If I was choosing, I would choose to make evil impossible and abandon meaning.

I believe he didn't expect things to go this bad, knew it could, just it was improbable. It maybe even if knew the results, he would have made it doing evil impossible.

I don't even think humans were a planned creation, but a back up plan and reaction to Angels become arrogant mostly due to Iblis leading them to that nature.

I think he is doing his best to fix creation, but at the end, I believe it's upon God to manifest his plan and will.

You have views, but there is no holy book to really back up your views from God. So it's not provable.

Whatever the case is, reincarnation or hell forever, it's upon God to guide us to the truth of all this.

We can theorize, but at the end, only God can reveal the truth of all this.