Bigotry as practice

[Link]

And over time, I was able to witness dark magic upon the Quran and break through it. Then I knew for certain, the dark forces don't want people to understand Quran properly.

 

[KWED]

I'm willing to be ruled by a Sunni government. I'm willing to put aside all sectarian advantages of Shiite government. We need one nation ruled by one government, no more countries, no more divisions.
Muslims don't believe we should be divided into countries. We have the right to rule ourselves and unite under one country and one government.

So, a supporter of proscribed terrorist groups and the establishment of a global caliphate.
Yikes!

 

[KWED]

One guy is telling me that all the Muslims in the world knew about ISIS and Al Qaeda before 911.

Even if what you say is true (which I doubt) if you look hard enough you can always find a swivel-eyed loon somewhere. Just look at Link and his ravings about Iblis' dark magic on the Quran fooling everyone in the world apart from him.
However, it would be equally as ridiculous to suggest that their views are in any way representative of even a minority.

No one around the world knew about an Al Qaeda. Not even Afghans. The American media informed us about the AL Qaeda. All the muslims when I asked them were scrambling around find out who there people are. It was like a joke.
This is the plight of these so called superior beings who have no empathy. They think the TV is the whole world. More importantly, they think their country is the whole world.

Al Qaeda was well established and widely recognised as an Islamist terror group long before 9/11. There were several high-profile attacks on US interests by AQ years before September 2001 and its leadership had openly declared "holy war" on the US.

But the ignorance is mind boggling.

Yes. Yes, it is.

 

[firedragon]

There is a verse that says not to take advisors except from yourselves to believers. Our problem to this day, we take advice from our enemies that wants to destroy us and want to put us against each other and wish to shatter any unity that is left within the nation.

We got ourselves, and that's about it. If we left them shatter our unity, no one western country is going to help us or stand up for our rights.

We need to overthrow dictators and unite under one Islamic government setting aside any disputes and differences and allowing freedom of thought and religion, and they label everyone who strives for this as Islamists as if different from Muslims, and truth be told, it won't happen peacefully and without effort.

Not relevant to me.

 

[crossfire]

I already explained CF. It says "Dhosena". Which means "Out of hatred/anger". If you want I will give the direct text. You can check it if you wish. The word is circled for your easy reference. View attachment 57710

I'm sorry, that is not the section I was referring to. This is the section I was referring to regarding bigotry.

“Santi, bhante, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kesamuttaṁ āgacchanti. Te sakaṁyeva vādaṁ dīpenti jotenti, parappavādaṁ pana khuṁsenti vambhenti paribhavanti omakkhiṁ karonti. Variant: parappavādaṁ → paravādaṁ (bj, sya-all) | paribhavanti omakkhiṁ → opapakkhiṁ (si, sya-all, km, pts1ed), omakkhikaṁ (mr)Aparepi, bhante, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kesamuttaṁ āgacchanti. Tepi sakaṁyeva vādaṁ dīpenti jotenti, parappavādaṁ pana khuṁsenti vambhenti paribhavanti omakkhiṁ karonti. Tesaṁ no, bhante, amhākaṁ hoteva kaṅkhā hoti vicikicchā: ‘ko su nāma imesaṁ bhavataṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ saccaṁ āha, ko musā’”ti?​

I'll understand if you don't want to answer this, as it is going a bit off on a tangent of your original post--referring to a specific scriptural example rather than the generalization you had in your opening post.

 

[Truthseeker]

By definition, theism is a departure from critical thinking, as is all faith-based belief. Critical thinking employs fallacy-free thought to derive sound conclusions from relevant evidence.

I have used relevant evidence. There is plenty of relevant evidence to establish Baha'u'llah as a Messenger of God. There is plenty of evidence to see that this Person is extraordinary, beyond that which the natural forces of the material world could produce. If He is not produced from this natural world, is that not evidence of God? This does not preclude critical thinking, either, to see that.

 

[F1fan]

The Quran talks about knowing God through the proper means.

How do you know that you are correct to trust the Quran, and believe it's true in the way you believe it? There's a lack of humility in that degree of certainty. When it is used as truth over others (non-believers) it can be arrogance and bigotry.

 

[Clara Tea]

Ive been thinking about this topic for about a decade and have been finding bigotry not only prevailing but increasing. Ill give some examples. Mind you, you may consider this anecdotal, no problem.

1. Some Muslims have this idea that all who dont believe in the prophet Muhammed are lacking morals. This seems like an arbitrary idea, and I am yet to see some scholarly exegesis of what ever Islamic text that states this as such. I would say even if some text say this directly, it is bigotry and should be avoided because its just nonsense. The same sentiment goes to some Christians. But it could be that Muslims and Christians are so vast in numbers that I encounter them more.

2. Some Atheists think that all theists are just stupid. They think all theists are just uneducated, and in fact, about a decade ago I did notice that there was a uprising in atheistic polemics that all theists are just uneducated. And I have known some ex Christians who became Muslims who have told me that once they became Muslims they noticed that the atheistic idea that all theists are just plain stupid and uneducated increased. But this is not based on a worldwide study of course. I have noticed in this very forum. Sometimes when you present some kind of research, they find the researcher was Christian, the atheist had this idea that since he is Christian its invalid. But hey, they took Newton and Algebra. I think that's hypocritical really.

Its better to put it bluntly. This is bigotry. Unresearched, yes. But what ever the background is, or the level of research finding, it is in my opinion, just bigotry because I personally believe that this kind of thinking is not based on research. Its just an indoctrination of some kind.

What do you think?

1. RE: STATEMENT: SOME GROUPS DISDAIN THE MORALS OF OTHERS (EXAMPLE: MUSLIMS DISDAIN THE MORALS OF OTHERS)?

At college, when the Ayatollah Khomeni was about to take control of Iran, an Iranian woman was elated that Iran was about to return to the religious teachings, rather than the immoral practices (nudie magazines, prostitution, theft, etc). What she didn't realize was that Khomeni would later pass a law to put to death any Iranian educated in America, because, he felt, they were corrupted. So, she likely was murdered by Khomeni when she returned to Iran. Khomeni was, in western eyes, a murderous savage, rooted in ancient tradition, and not interested in the welfare of his people. Soon, the vast majority of Iranians also wanted to kick out Khomeni.

I felt that it was a good idea for Khomeni to lead Iran because Iran was economically powerful, technologically advanced (especially after Shaw Reza Pahlavi educated them in hard sciences in America), and they would likely develop the atomic bomb and be a major threat to world peace. By having Khomeni in power, they would be thrown into the dark ages, their economy wrecked, their people would be ignorant (unable to fathom the complexities of nuclear weapons), and the world would be safe.

Though I had read such works as Fitzgerald's translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the Iranian woman insisted that I was ignorant. She felt that Iran was such a huge place, with a powerful civilization for such a long time, that everyone in the world should know all of its philosophy. I felt that Iran was just one tiny country, and it's philosophy was interesting, but lets not discount the philosophy of other cultures. So I asked her if she knew the philosophies and writings of North Dakota (a state of the United States). She drew a blank and said "what does that have to do with it?" Well, North Dakota is also a small land mass, and it also has cultures spanning thousands of years (American Indian philosophies). But, she could only fathom her own culture and totally disdained the cultures of others.

But, this notion that: others lack morals because they don't believe as we do, is not confined to the Muslim religion. Christians, too, believe that all morality comes exclusively from their particular sect of religion, and that atheists have no morals.

But, when we examine the immorality of Christian religious leaders (Reverend Jimmy Swaggart arrested for paying for prostitutes in Lancaster, California, Reverend Robert Schuller's son (also a reverend) with a half naked blonde in one arm, bottle of booze in another, his pants down in public, and his penis sticking out, et al), we realize that morality is about the flaws of mankind, and no one is perfect. But, it seems that power (and mammon) corrupt, and many of our religious leaders, like Reverend Jim Bakker and his wife, Tammy Fay Bakker, who stole donations from starving Africans to live the high life in their mansion (titled in their lawyer's name to evade criticism), are not perfect. In fact, they are so far from perfect that it seems that they are even trying to be bad.

Perhaps this is what is meant in the bible when they tell us to spend less time complaining about the splinter in our neighbor's eye, and don't even notice the log in our own.

We must conclude that religions don't instill morals. They do, however, teach morals. Many do know how to be moral, but they are tempted by sex or greed (or other things) to be immoral (even though they know better).

2. RE: STATEMENT THAT SOME ATHEISTS THINK THAT THEISTS ARE STUPID:

It is like asking...."Why can't I do something stupid without someone thinking that I'm doing something stupid?" "It's just not fair."

A theist that I met found a rock on a rock pile and used it as a proof of God. I was not convinced (by that....but maybe convinced by other arguments). Lets face it, the evidence was stupid.

Theists, today, are contradicting science, and some claim that science is against religion. So, they say that Global Warming is wrong and just scare-mongering, or perhaps just a natural process that has happened many times in the past and will not affect humans. Some argue that Global Warming isn't a problem because they will rapture to heaven and leave the earth behind. The issue of "stupidity" comes in when non-scientist theists attempt to publish scientific papers refuting real scientists. They didn't do any research, they don't have college degrees, they don't use logical arguments (though they seem to see some vestige of logic in their claims).

Theists also tend to believe things that have been proven wrong. For example, the Shroud of Turin was dated long after the death of Jesus, so, clearly could not have been the burial shroud of Jesus. Yet, many theists insist that it was (with no real proof).

 

[Clara Tea]

Yes, its bigotry.

Normally, I'd say exposure is key. Being exposed to people you disagree with on a personal level often helps these things disappear. But it has to be personal. Simply rubbing elbows won't do.

By seeing the 'enemy' is just as moral/human/intelligent as you, and possibly even turning them into a 'friend', is the only way many ever drop such discriminatory ideas.

"Exposure the key?" But once we tell everyone that they are all wrong and I am the only one who is right, they still don't believe me......Now what? (joking).

 

[Clara Tea]

3. Some Christians have this idea that anyone who doesn't believe what they believe will be tortured for eternity.

In their defense, "tortured because a loving God allows Satan and hell to exist."

 

[Clara Tea]

Thats not bigotry.

Someone once asked if it is bigamy to be married to more than one spouse. I said...."no, it would be big of them."

I wonder if bigotry works the same way?

Bigots tend to not see their own bigotry. It is like Archie Bunker explaining how liberal minded he is, and insulting every minority in the process.

 

[Clara Tea]

She thought me a satanist cuz I was a pagan not cuz I was a satanist. At the time I wasn't anything close nor was I a luciferian. And thought me immoral. No matter what I said I couldn't change her mind.

That's what voodoo dolls are for.

 

[Clara Tea]

God loves those with practice justice (yuhubal muqsiteen) and hates disbelievers and does not love them per Quran.

I left Islam for 5 years because I couldn't grasp disbelievers going to hell. But I see their oppressive unjust nature now and it happens when you put low desires first and ignore guidance of God, it's bound to happen they become oppressive in nature towards oppressed and believers who defend the oppressed.

Some Muslims are fine with disbelievers going to hell (just as you came to believe). Some Muslims have taken the extra step to send them to hell by murdering them. Thus, the 911 attack, and the various terrorist attacks in Israel.

When one takes that extra step of murdering those who don't believe as they do (to save the morality of the world), some think that behavior is, in itself, immoral.

 

[Clara Tea]

Actually, I'd be fine with that if they limited themselves to just quietly thinking about it.

Some Christians believe that torture should begin on earth (thus, the Inquisition, the Crusades, and the various tortures to convert Jews of Christianity). Is that really helping God do his work?

 

[Clara Tea]

Actually most of it is about polytheism, particularly it focuses mostly on it's rival religion which that of the debauched Satanism type in which sexual deviance is praised and you have soothsayers and spiritual guides that have no proof for their authority but claim to represent the "divine will" of the "universe" "gods" "angels" or "spirits" or "jinn" or whatever your perspective is and Quran addresses this type of religion and reasoning they have more then anything else.

It's the astrology soothsaying type of polytheism that is spoken most about Quran and focused, and today this is the religion that rivals Islam intellectually and it's what elites believe in generally, because their success is intertwined to selling their souls to the devils, and so Quran devoted most verses to it, because if Judaism and Christianity are true, so then is Islam and it's not that big of an issue intellectually to show that and Mohammad (s) is a Prophet among the Prophets and they believe in Prophet. Since it does not contradict religions except in which they went astray in while soothsaying type, there is less and quicker refutation to their religion, while polytheism is from a different energy source that opposes the chosen ones and accuses them of being sorcerers and it's of directly opposed philosophy to the heart of the issue.

Someone asked "What about polytheism" and you said "most of it is about polytheism, particularly it focuses mostly on it's rival religion which that of the debauched Satanism type in which sexual deviance is praised and you have soothsayers and spiritual guides."

In other words, anyone who believes in polytheism is wrong, and only you are right? Do wrong people deserve to die or be tortured? Should a loving God allow their eternal torture?

 

[firedragon]

I'm sorry, that is not the section I was referring to. This is the section I was referring to regarding bigotry.

“Santi, bhante, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kesamuttaṁ āgacchanti. Te sakaṁyeva vādaṁ dīpenti jotenti, parappavādaṁ pana khuṁsenti vambhenti paribhavanti omakkhiṁ karonti. Variant: parappavādaṁ → paravādaṁ (bj, sya-all) | paribhavanti omakkhiṁ → opapakkhiṁ (si, sya-all, km, pts1ed), omakkhikaṁ (mr)Aparepi, bhante, eke samaṇabrāhmaṇā kesamuttaṁ āgacchanti. Tepi sakaṁyeva vādaṁ dīpenti jotenti, parappavādaṁ pana khuṁsenti vambhenti paribhavanti omakkhiṁ karonti. Tesaṁ no, bhante, amhākaṁ hoteva kaṅkhā hoti vicikicchā: ‘ko su nāma imesaṁ bhavataṁ samaṇabrāhmaṇānaṁ saccaṁ āha, ko musā’”ti?​

I'll understand if you don't want to answer this, as it is going a bit off on a tangent of your original post--referring to a specific scriptural example rather than the generalization you had in your opening post.

Okay. Let me break this down for you a bit.

I dont know where you had got this passage from, but its a part of the second paragraph of the Kalama Sutta. I must say the transliteration is pretty strange. Where it should be "ng", it is "m". And and where it should be p they have put m.

Anyway, no worries. This passage is talking about the Buddha, following Itipiso Bhagava Saima Sambuddho, and praises him with with caste kshathreeya and then goes onto speak of a Bamuna or a hermit type of person who visits their village. He comes and preaches his own philosophy. He denounces the other persons philosophy. then comes another hermit/priest, and he does the same thing. Between these two who should we trust? Or rather, how do we know who is "lying"? You see the end of your cut and paste? It says "Musa" which means "lie".

Thats a question put forward to the Buddha.

What in the world is bigoted in that?

 

[Clara Tea]

Yes, there is bigotry of this type. As far as I know there is no text in the Qur'an that non-Muslims lack morals. Christians don't have such a text, either, in the New Testament. It may be that in the Old Testament there are such indications, but those texts are suspect to me.

I don't know about stupid, but to them all theists are uncritical thinkers. Only an atheist is a critical thinker. This is also a type of bigotry.

Perhaps faith is not about thinking, but believing? Perhaps the truly faithful are good people trying to do good?

If so, how do we explain the war in Iraq? The US lacked proof that Iraq was tied to terrorism, and we were told that once we defeat it, we will have the proof (1,000,000 dead Iraqis later). Should a person of faith defy God's commandment not to attack Babylon (in Revelation)? God said "thou shalt not kill," and "turn the other cheek." How can we consider that we are doing good if we defy God and kill?

 

[firedragon]

1. RE: STATEMENT: SOME GROUPS DISDAIN THE MORALS OF OTHERS (EXAMPLE: MUSLIMS DISDAIN THE MORALS OF OTHERS)?

At college, when the Ayatollah Khomeni was about to take control of Iran, an Iranian woman was elated that Iran was about to return to the religious teachings, rather than the immoral practices (nudie magazines, prostitution, theft, etc). What she didn't realize was that Khomeni would later pass a law to put to death any Iranian educated in America, because, he felt, they were corrupted. So, she likely was murdered by Khomeni when she returned to Iran. Khomeni was, in western eyes, a murderous savage, rooted in ancient tradition, and not interested in the welfare of his people. Soon, the vast majority of Iranians also wanted to kick out Khomeni.

I felt that it was a good idea for Khomeni to lead Iran because Iran was economically powerful, technologically advanced (especially after Shaw Reza Pahlavi educated them in hard sciences in America), and they would likely develop the atomic bomb and be a major threat to world peace. By having Khomeni in power, they would be thrown into the dark ages, their economy wrecked, their people would be ignorant (unable to fathom the complexities of nuclear weapons), and the world would be safe.

Though I had read such works as Fitzgerald's translation of the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the Iranian woman insisted that I was ignorant. She felt that Iran was such a huge place, with a powerful civilization for such a long time, that everyone in the world should know all of its philosophy. I felt that Iran was just one tiny country, and it's philosophy was interesting, but lets not discount the philosophy of other cultures. So I asked her if she knew the philosophies and writings of North Dakota (a state of the United States). She drew a blank and said "what does that have to do with it?" Well, North Dakota is also a small land mass, and it also has cultures spanning thousands of years (American Indian philosophies). But, she could only fathom her own culture and totally disdained the cultures of others.

But, this notion that: others lack morals because they don't believe as we do, is not confined to the Muslim religion. Christians, too, believe that all morality comes exclusively from their particular sect of religion, and that atheists have no morals.

But, when we examine the immorality of Christian religious leaders (Reverend Jimmy Swaggart arrested for paying for prostitutes in Lancaster, California, Reverend Robert Schuller's son (also a reverend) with a half naked blonde in one arm, bottle of booze in another, his pants down in public, and his penis sticking out, et al), we realize that morality is about the flaws of mankind, and no one is perfect. But, it seems that power (and mammon) corrupt, and many of our religious leaders, like Reverend Jim Bakker and his wife, Tammy Fay Bakker, who stole donations from starving Africans to live the high life in their mansion (titled in their lawyer's name to evade criticism), are not perfect. In fact, they are so far from perfect that it seems that they are even trying to be bad.

Perhaps this is what is meant in the bible when they tell us to spend less time complaining about the splinter in our neighbor's eye, and don't even notice the log in our own.

We must conclude that religions don't instill morals. They do, however, teach morals. Many do know how to be moral, but they are tempted by sex or greed (or other things) to be immoral (even though they know better).

2. RE: STATEMENT THAT SOME ATHEISTS THINK THAT THEISTS ARE STUPID:

It is like asking...."Why can't I do something stupid without someone thinking that I'm doing something stupid?" "It's just not fair."

A theist that I met found a rock on a rock pile and used it as a proof of God. I was not convinced (by that....but maybe convinced by other arguments). Lets face it, the evidence was stupid.

Theists, today, are contradicting science, and some claim that science is against religion. So, they say that Global Warming is wrong and just scare-mongering, or perhaps just a natural process that has happened many times in the past and will not affect humans. Some argue that Global Warming isn't a problem because they will rapture to heaven and leave the earth behind. The issue of "stupidity" comes in when non-scientist theists attempt to publish scientific papers refuting real scientists. They didn't do any research, they don't have college degrees, they don't use logical arguments (though they seem to see some vestige of logic in their claims).

Theists also tend to believe things that have been proven wrong. For example, the Shroud of Turin was dated long after the death of Jesus, so, clearly could not have been the burial shroud of Jesus. Yet, many theists insist that it was (with no real proof).

Yeah. Ayatollah Khomeini or some other person is not Islam. And if he was a bigot or a hypocrite or a murderer or what ever, it is wrong. Science and theism and Jimmy Swaggart who got caught visiting his prostitute twice a week and making fake apologies etc etc are all irrelevant.

Thanks.

 

[Clara Tea]

Kalama Sutta I read I think when I was in school. 3rd grade maybe.

Anyway, this is actually not a paramparagatha matter. In fact, I am not going against what I inherited via tradition or through generations, I am in fact confirming what I received through generations.

For publication in a journal of professionals, I wrote a critical review of the Kalama Sutta in kindergarten, using a green crayon, because that was the only writing instrument that they would allow me to use. I wanted to use a computer and printer, but they had refused access. They also wouldn't let me use weapons grade plutonium for my science project, which showed how to power the world and dispose of the waste. I think that we should petition for kindergarten rights.

 

[firedragon]

For publication in a journal of professionals, I wrote a critical review of the Kalama Sutta in kindergarten, using a green crayon, because that was the only writing instrument that they would allow me to use. I wanted to use a computer and printer, but they had refused access. They also wouldn't let me use weapons grade plutonium for my science project, which showed how to power the world and dispose of the waste. I think that we should petition for kindergarten rights.

You wrote a Critical Review of the Kalama Sutta "In Kindergarten"?