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Featured Bigotry as practice

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Not per your definition or definition of disbelievers, I don't.
     
  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    By definition, theism is a departure from critical thinking, as is all faith-based belief. Critical thinking employs fallacy-free thought to derive sound conclusions from relevant evidence. There is no sound logical argument that ends, "therefore God." If one has gotten to that place, he has done so by foregoing critical thinking and taking a leap of faith, which is the logical fallacy called non sequitur. In a logic class, the argument would be called invalid and the paper marked with the comment, "This conclusion does not follow from what preceded it."

    Only people willing and able to dispense with faith-based thought can be called critical thinkers. The combination of believing that there is insufficient evidence to believe gods exist, and the critical thinker's unwillingness to believe without such evidence, leads to only one possibility - agnostic atheism. Only faith can get you into any other logically possible category, and refusing to employ faith keeps one out of them.

    So, yes, many critical thinkers are atheists, and the theists that have mastered critical thinking in other parts of their lives have done so by excluding faith-based thought from those parts. Some are posters on RF. They indicate a willingness to be associated with theism or some religious tradition, but don't go down the wild roads that many of the believers travel. You don't see the crazy or the irrational or the tortured logic or scientific error that characterize those who have not learned to compartmentalize their faith, and who have let it shape their thinking.

    You present this as if you were unwilling to tolerate the bigotry of your religion until you discovered it was deserved, and then rejoined the religion on that basis. That's not credible. More more likely is that you simply wanted to be a Muslim more than you wanted to take a stand against its bigotry, and went to the 'they deserve it' strategy to rationalize your decision.

    This is common in Old Testament mythology, where bad things are frequently assumed to be God's justice in response to some offense. It begins with the story of the first people. Why does a good God allow man to have such a hard life, toiling for his food, women suffering in childbirth, and then death. Why not eternity in a paradise? Man must have done something. Oh, yeah, that apple. Humanity's fault.

    Likewise with the flood. Why drown almost all of humanity? Man had it coming.

    And you're doing the same to reconcile your previous cognitive dissonance leading to a five-year hiatus from Islam. You missed it and wanted to return to the fold, so you used a time honored device to resolve the dissonance. They deserve hell for being unfaithful to Allah.

    But this is the sin that divine command theory ask you to commit. You begin defining right and wrong not using compassion or conscience, but by the things a deity is said to have done or commanded. They're good by definition because the God is good, so one only need add whatever is needed to rationalize that this apparently horrible act is actually good in disguise. It deforms the natural moral compass.

    Here's a great example from the Austin, Texas cable call-in talk show called the Atheist Experience. Host Tracie Harris told a Christian caller that "You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches it and says, 'When you're done, I'm going to punish you' .. If I were in a situation where I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. That's the difference between me and your God."

    His reply: "True to life, you portray that little girl as someone who is innocent. She's just as evil as you."

    That's divine command theory, and you're buying into it now as well. Aren't you doing just that yourself? Your God is good, and although your moral compass once told you that it is not moral to send unbelievers' souls to hell, and you were right. But when you needed that to change, you turned to divine command theory, because that supports anything you want to do if you believe it is Allah's will. It must be morally good t do that because Allah does that, so it's now OK to you. And you have reversed the order of events to finding people deserving of the wrath of Allah leading to a return to Allah rather than the other way around - you wanted to return, and agreed to see that act of Allah as righteous.

    Actually, the theists seem to be the most unjust. You just explained how you've come to see it as being justice that unbelievers are cast in hell. To a secular humanist, that belief disqualifies your other opinions on moral issues. You're clearly not using rational ethics to decide right from wrong, which begins with empathy, and leads to very different conclusions using the mature moral compass rather than the words in a holy book.

    You meet and exceed that criterion for me. You go beyond apathetic and neutral in opposing the best people on earth. You denounce them, call them oppressors, enemies of justice, and worthy of hell. Their moral standards, the ethics of secular humanism, have evolved beyond medieval standards. And they are the ones advocating for peace, tolerance, inclusivity, and opportunity for all. The religions give this lip service, but that's all it is. If the two find themselves in conflict, it will be because of the religions attempting to inflict themselves on others uninterested in their morals. Ask yourself why the American Christian church has sided much more with the Republican party, a group of people with loathsome ethics. The secular humanists prefer the ethics embodied in a man like Biden.

    So no, the religious are not moral exemplars, much less the best people on earth. And I do not support their religions. Au contraire. I'm an antitheist in large part because of issues discussed in this post. We just don't need much of the world being taught to think like that. We would be better off if nobody were under the sway of preachers and their holy books. Why in the world would anybody want there to be people in the world that think what you think about them, or support the institutions that churn them out?
     
    #82 It Aint Necessarily So, Nov 21, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  3. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    By who's definition?
     
  4. Hanne

    Hanne Follower of Jesus Christ

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    Hi RayofLight,
    This may be true for some circles of Christians but I would say that in essence this is not how it is in Christianity. Christians should be clean and friendly and balanced and honest.
    no, this is not what we believe. We don't think that other religions don't have a moral compass.
    Of course, in many other religions there are good values.
     
  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You can play probabilities but in my case, some events including my uncle being jailed and tortured for no crime, and my government (Canada) supporting that dictatorship country, was a huge factor. I see it the apathy towards oppression and what it causes.
     
  6. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    By theists definition own definition of faith and the definition of critical thinking. Faith and revelations aren't critical thinking since they don't present arguments or independently verifiable evidence of such revelations, but they are the basis of religion. No, religious faith isn't reasonable and rational. At best, it's conformist. Theism is never rational, but that doesn't mean theists are irrational as in consistently irrational in their decision and schemes of thoughts, just like telling a lie once in a while wouldn't earn you the epithet liar which would be better spent on habitual liars.
     
    #86 epronovost, Nov 21, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2021
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  7. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Theists have predominantly defined themselves as rational. Some dont know this.

    Anyway, who's definition? When some one says "by definition", where is this definition coming from?

    Its just made up. People keep making things up and calling them "by definition". Thats just a dream to feel superior.
     
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  8. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    It's the definition of critical thinking: "the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment." No objective analysis results in a god conclusion, therefore any god conclusion was arrived at by a different method, one that doesn't rise to that standard. If you hold an insufficiently justified belief, you have departed from critical thinking. It's definitional. It's what is being referred to when the phrase is used properly - the avoidance of unjustified belief and thus unsound conclusions.

    Sorry about your uncle. I'm curious in what country this happened, and what were the charges if any?

    You seem to be more angry at the apathetic than the oppressors. How does Canada support that dictatorship, and what do you think they should have done for your uncle but didn't do?
     
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  9. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Thats exactly what theists do. I think you are trying to make theists stupid to feel superior. That is the definition of Bigotry.
     
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  10. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    They would be wrong.

    I already mentioned by whose definition. The definition of faith by theist themselves and that of critical thinking and reason as espouse by all the philosophers of history and present day. How do you define critical thinking?
     
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  11. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Well. Same sentiments can be exchanged up and down. Children do that.

    You are wrong. :) Maybe if you think critically, study a bit, or just read up a little, you will understand.
     
  12. RayofLight

    RayofLight My pronouns: they/them

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    I didn't say all Christians were like that nor should they be. Or even that most were. Just the ones in the area I was in seemed to believe that. It is a problem among some Christians tho they shouldn't be like that y'alls theology doesn't seem to teach that. I was replying to the OP based on my own experiences...i could've worded it better tho
     
    #92 RayofLight, Nov 21, 2021
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  13. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain why you always throw those little temper tantrum and never provide any argument. That makes you so very childish. You did it like three times already in this thread alone. How am I wrong? What's your argument.

    How did you rationally and reasonably with independently verifiable evidence and following systems of logic came to the conclusion that there is indeed a deity and that deity is the one described and espoused by Islam?
     
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  14. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Weren't you just complaining about arbitrary definitions?

    Of course theists define themselves as rational. They like to be thought of that way.

    Somebody once wrote, "Hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue," meaning that the non-virtuous feign virtue, and in so doing, tacitly pay homage to virtue. We see this in apologetics as well, where people who skip the reasoning part and jump to faith-based conclusions then try to show us how reasonable those conclusions actually are, paying homage to reason while doing violence to it in their own thinking. They resent being thought of or called irrational, but don't mind drinking from that cup.

    Critical thinkers declare theism irrational despite the theists' homage to critical thought for reasons given by me and others in this thread.

    Nope. We have a concept in mind, which in this case is a sharply prescribed manner of processing information, and we wish to give it a name so that we can use a single phrase to stand for the idea described in the definition.

    Are you not aware that all words are made up? There is a large consensus among critical thinkers about what that is and is not. You might not like the conclusion, and try to counter it with complaints about the definitions, but as you see, that has no persuasive power.

    Of course you do. It's common among theists to attribute differences in the opinions of atheists to some character defect or unsavory ulterior motive in the atheist. It's a big part of the apologist's toolbox.

    I can disagree with you and the other theists indefinitely without resorting to personal attack. I have never called you stupid, just wrong. I don't accuse you of having any improper motives, just faulty thinking.

    You seem to think that I couldn't engage in a discussion like this without having the unflattering motive you suggest. I wonder why? It must be either because you do that, and are projecting yourself onto others, or because you think atheists do that, which meets your own definition of bigotry. Nobody has called you stupid but you, although you imputed the idea to me.
     
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  15. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Of course. Your definition of theism is just made up.

    False.

    Theists are fully capable of critical thinking. And theism has been built on critical thinking for many years. You seem just not aware.

    Appropriate example of what the OP is talking about.
     
  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    According to hadiths, three are partners, oppressors, their supporters and those who just watch it happen.

    I believe this is the truth. They are partners in the crime.
     
  17. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Islam comes down to one thing. You love God enough to reason properly and seeks obvious proofs with regards to his religion.

    It's not about critical or non-critical, education or non-education, it's about having submissive spirit towards God. If that happens, proofs and insights are available from God to prove the truth he wants us to hold on to and follow.
     
  18. firedragon

    firedragon Veteran Member

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    Well. Its your arbitrary understanding of Islam. Others understand it very differently. Open a new thread to discuss Islam and the theology.
     
  19. JustGeorge

    JustGeorge Retired Ruler
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    Though there are some paths in Buddhism or Hinduism that may use divine revelation as their path, this is in no way true of all views in either of these faiths. I've probably met more secular Buddhists than religious Buddhists(part of that probably comes from my location), and Hinduism is so diverse there's really no reason a person has to accept a thing that they can't verify if they find it illogical. Indeed, one does not even have to be a theist to be a Hindu(ask @Aupmanyav ).
     
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  20. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    It's not arbitrary. But back to your topic, the semantics of bigotry and hate speech will be moved up a notch to do what oppressors always wish to do per Quran, eliminate all Mosques, Churchs, and Synagogues. Oppressors as in the heart of evil, Gog and Magog, illuminati and the Satanic Avatar of theirs in this century.

    If we don't fight back, they will do it. And if we are passive, they will forbid Islam to be practiced globally one day, as Quran warns if we don't defend and God doesn't repel some men by some men, no Mosque no Church no Synagogue would remain standing. No we will be at the mercy of Jinn Worshiping avatars and tarot cards for spiritual guidance and that will be the only religion allowed.

    Hijaab being forbidden in some countries is just a social experiment. Testing grounds and they will move it up.

    In the name of human rights they will attempt forbid Islam to be practiced. After all, is not theocracy part of Islam? Doesn't Islam teach to judge and implement government per revelation of God and that judicially we are to refer to God?

    They fight us for that, and if we let them forbid us the right to establish democratic theocracies (they are not paradox), they will one day forbid us from Islam all together.
     
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