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Featured Bigotry as practice

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by firedragon, Nov 20, 2021.

  1. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    But if we're using reason and logic, then everybody is using the same reason and logic. There isn't "my" reason and logic and "your" reason and logic. There are just reason and logic.
    I have yet to hear any logically sound argument that ends with "therefore God." Have you got one?


    By the way, I always find it strange when people are so quick to just throw everybody on ignore that attempts to challenge their arguments. What's the point in even coming here then?
     
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  2. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    But the Biblical King David hasn't "turned out to be a real person". Some people claim that some inscriptions can be interpreted as mentioning the name, but it is far from a confirmed historical fact and other archaeologists and historians reject those claims
    There is still no evidence that the Biblical "King David" existed as described.

    And there still isn't. However, most people with any knowledge of the issues would say that there was likely some historical figure on whom the Biblical story was based.

    The "King David" of the Bible is a myth, separate from the possible historical figure. Just like many other such characters in mythology from around the world.

    Science has no bearing on mythology.

    No. People might say "The story of Sodom and Gomorrah could have been based in part on the possible destruction of Tall el Hammam by an airburst meteor - but it is just speculation".
    We will still ridicule the idea that the Biblical story actually happened.
     
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  3. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    Some religionists just want an echo chamber. And some forums provide them, in the form of threads where debate is forbidden and nonsensical and disproved claims can be repeated and celebrated without fear of challenge.
    You can sometimes feel the shock and confusion from people when they venture out of such places into proper debate forums for the first time.
     
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  4. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, as we saw from your earlier attempt, the wording of the actual text bears no resemblance to the apologists' interpretation.
    Second, you are assuming the historical accuracy of the claims made in the original text.
    Thirdly, the use of entirely arbitrary "probabilities".

    Therefore, we can dismiss your strange claims as nonsense.
     
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  5. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    You don't seem to recognize what critical thinking is or does. If you did, you wouldn't have written those words.

    Critical thinking involves using a form of thought that reliably produces sound conclusions, conclusions that those proficient in the process can agree upon by following fallacy-free argumentation. It is absolutely possible to tell if this method was used or not, but probably only if one can do it proficiently himself. An apt analogy is the addition of a column of numbers. If you know the rules of addition, and execute them properly, you can go from addends to sum every time, and others doing the same thing using those same rules will come to that sound "conclusion as well." Furthermore, they can look at one another's work and confirm its soundness.

    Now suppose somebody comes along unskilled in addition. He says that the sum of that column of numbers is infinity (this stands for "therefore God"). He is told that there is no way to get from a finite number of finite numbers to "infinity" using addition done properly (this stands for critical thinking), and he is told, "I did use correct adding as best I could. You're assuming that because you didn't get infinity as a sum that all people will conclude that. I don't know if you added properly or not. There's no way for me to tell."

    Too arrogant? Usually I get that when I say that something is true that a faith-based thinker doesn't recognize can be known with confidence. That's arrogance to those who think that all opinions are equal, because to them, opinions are always arbitrary. None are better than any other, since they're all just opinions.

    And, of course you failed when you went to the personal. This is what it's source calls the pyramid of disagreement. The three bottom levels are instant fails.

    [​IMG]

    Compare that to my response to your post. I explicitly refuted your central point, namely that you did use critical thinking. I described what that was and what it can do, and that if it didn't do it for you, then you weren't doing it properly. I added the analogy of adding to illustrate that when there is a proscribed manner of thinking as with critical thought and addition, it is possible to apply the method if one knows how, to determine whether he has arrived at the correct sum, and to know that one is correct even if others who cannot follow do not.

    And there you go again, imputing some character defect in your collocutor. You dove to the bottom half of the pyramid again.

    I suspect that this is not the proper venue for you, or if it is, that you either stick to the DIRs that exclude people who might disagree with you, or try to understand the people that seem to vex you in your misunderstanding of them. You submit your opinions to the marketplace of ideas on a public discussion forum, and then bristle at the reactions you get, as if people are being mean to you. No, they just have a different method of deciding what is true about the world than you do, and different values regarding what is appropriate conversation. It's a different culture.
     
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  6. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    All fair and well. Now 2 follow up questions. Are there any limits to critical thinking and sound conclusions? Or do they that apply to all of the world in all cases?
    You see, I has learned that just like all other human behavior, what you can do with critical thinking and sound conclusions has a limit.
    In other words it only works in some cases and not all.
     
  7. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Jesus said that Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL the
    Gentile's time is fulfilled. That was nonsense to the Jews - they were a part
    of the Roman Empire. And all the Old Testamant prophecies of the Jews
    returning from the persecutions of the whole world, and taking back their
    nation with the sword were bizare. But that happened. There are no Moabites,
    Edomites, Amalekites, Canaanites, Phillistines etc but there are still Jews,
    driven out of 120 countries.
    In the 1900's talk of Zionism and the return of urban or rural Jews in
    Europe or America back to the Turkish controlled Muslim occupied Palestine
    was absurd. How it all happened, and the 1948 and 1967 wars are worth
    reading and thinking about. I see the hand of God in that, just as Josephus
    saw the hand in God in Israel's destruction AD 68-135.
    For Ezekiel and Isaiah to speak to the Jewish captives of a SECOND RETURN
    was just as fantastic - here they were, slaves in Babylon, and they are told of
    another, far greater return from all over the world. These captives never thought
    to see Israel again.
     
  8. Dan From Smithville

    Dan From Smithville Veteran Member
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    That seems more of a religious claim to me rather than bigotry. I would think it would reach bigotry in how it was applied.
     
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  9. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    Again, if you want to claim Biblical prophesy, you need to reference the actual passage, and then relate to the details of the specific event you claim it is prophesying.

    I suspect apologists are usually reluctant to do this because the actual words in the original text seems to bear no relation to the claim being made once we strip out all the wild interpretation, question begging and non sequiturs.
     
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  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I have had this out with Jews on Quora and here. I use their own texts
    or the Interlinear bible which dissects every word. Not sure if there is a
    specific verse you wish to challenge - I can't answer them all: you wouldn't
    read it.
     
  11. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Not another one. I'm tired of the demands to prove my faith. I won't put you on ignore, though. I don't want to discuss this matter in particular with you either, though.
     
  12. Truthseeker9

    Truthseeker9 Well-Known Member

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    Thinkers of all ages have disagreed with each other using reason and logic.
     
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  13. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    Well, how about the one you cited above.
    Provide a reference for the actual passage, and then explain the specific historical event it is supposed to have predicted.
    Surely not that difficult?
     
  14. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    It is not a demand to "prove your faith".
    It is a request to see the "overwhelming evidence" that you claim exists.
    These are two entirely separate issues.
    "Faith" is personal and unfalsifiable.
    "Evidence" must be something that everyone can see with a degree of objectivity and verifiability.

    Perhaps you meant that "after 50 years of consideration, I still have faith"?
     
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  15. KWED

    KWED Well-Known Member

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    You will find that disagreement is usually due to insufficient data, or the disagreement is over details rather than principles.
    If there is verifiable evidence to consider, reason and logic usually point to one conclusion.
     
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  16. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Except that humans created Israel in 1948. Why insert the "hand of god" when it isn't necessary?
     
  17. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    I didn't ask you to "prove your faith." I asked you to back up your claim with evidence you claim to have.

    We're on a debate forum ("General Religious Debates") where you made a claim. You made a claim about how you've been researching for 50 years, so I don't know why you think it's weird that someone would ask you to back up your claims about God(s). Why you'd put me on ignore for doing what we're supposed to be doing here is bizarre to me.

    Do you think you should just be able to make claims and then have nobody challenge you on any of it, in a debate forum?
     
  18. SkepticThinker

    SkepticThinker Veteran Member

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    Right, they don't just make up their own reason and logic though.
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Good question. Religious Jews do not accept the state of Israel because it was not
    founded by the Messiah. That's incredible.
    Did God create life on earth, or did He 'command the seas to bring forth life' Gen 1.
    Did God destroy Israel or did the Romans, as Daniel 9 puts it, 'After the sixty-two
    ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of
    the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come
    like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed
    .'

    God deals through natural agencies.
     
  20. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    I cited several above. Which one do you want?
    The same scriptures which foretold the two exiles of the Jews
    and their return also gave great detail to an event which has
    yet to happen. An event I hope not to see in my life time.
    Ezekiel 38,39 - two full chapters on the nations that come
    against the newly recovered and restored Israel. It cites some
    of the enemies (Iran, Libya, Ethiopia, part of Russa - but these
    names and borders have changed since Ezekiel.) Plus one
    ally of Israel who has no biblical name at all, and lives in the
    islands or coastlands, far removed.
    This reads like a nuclear war, if not a world war.
     
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