Big Bounce ( no Bang )- Qur'an says ::The fate of the universe.

[Agnostisch]

Doesn't Allah speak english?

Allah speaks Arabic and Jesus speaks Aramaic and possibly Hebrew. Yahweh speaks Hebrew and God speaks a variety of Western languages from Latin to English. Considering they each claim to be "The One True...whatever," it sounds to me like The Good Lord is multi-lingual.

 

[Windwalker]

Allah speaks Arabic and Jesus speaks Aramaic and possibly Hebrew. Yahweh speaks Hebrew and God speaks a variety of Western languages from Latin to English. Considering they each claim to be "The One True...whatever," it sounds to me like The Good Lord is multi-lingual.

You forgot to add that the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Qur’an has the following to say about the beginning of the universe:

21:30 Do not those who disbelieve see that the skies and the earth were a single entity? Then WE parted them ……

.

This verse was revealed to disbelievers, primarily, those living at the time of Muhammad. My question is, how and when did the disbelievers see that the skies and earth were a single entity? And when did they witness that God parted them? If they didnt see such a thing, why would Allah expect them to believe He did such a thing?

 

[Ruh]

Why is that nobody understood these verses like that before science discovered the expanding universe?
No muslims were researching this. No muslims were correcting scientists back when they thought the universe was static.

Sounds like this is, once again, nothing but post hoc rationalisation attempts at keeping their islamic faith relevant in the 21st century in light of all scientific progress.

Well those verses are there forever , somebody has to start to open his/her eyes to see the wonder .

Now tell us all about how the author of the Quran believes that sperm cells originate in the chest of man, between the ribs and the backbone.

Will you please give me chapter and verse no. ? Thanks .

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Allah speaks Arabic and Jesus speaks Aramaic and possibly Hebrew. Yahweh speaks Hebrew and God speaks a variety of Western languages from Latin to English. Considering they each claim to be "The One True...whatever," it sounds to me like The Good Lord is multi-lingual.

If the muslims are correct, then Allah expects non-arabs to not only become fluent in ancient arabic, but actually master it to the point where native arabs actually don't even master it, to catch and understand all the supposed "miraculous" nuances and see "the one truth" among all the ambiguity which apparantly is "miraculous" in "the correct arabic dialect".

To me, that's a tell that it's bs.

An omnicient, all-knowing, all-powerfull god would not rely on text written in an ancient language that barely anyone speaks, let alone truelly masters, to communicate what is supposed to be the most important message to mankind ever.

Whenever a muslim brings me that "argument", I ask him if HE speaks and masters this ancient arabic.
I haven't met a muslim yet that could. So they too, rely on people who claim they can and who claim that can "interpret" these texts properly.

And still, they need non-muslim scientists to discover that the universe is expanding to "find out" that that is what their book supposedly says. Apparantly, 1500 years of "muslim scholarship by traditional arab speakers" who read this book in the language that it supposedly is meant to be read in to catch all the nuances, was not enough to discover this "meaning" in the text.

They need help from non-muslims who hadn't even touched a quran in their entire lives.

Once again, obvious nonsense.


Sorry for ranting.

But I think this is a really tiring argument that has been beat to death already so many many times....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well those verses are there forever , somebody has to start to open his/her eyes to see the wonder .

Good job completely sidestepping the point made.
Again, nobody ever read those verses that way until non-muslims discovered the universe is expanding.

You understand how unimpressive it is, right, that you can "reinterpret" the verses (and really stretching it) just to make it force-fit the science post hoc?

This would be a tiny bit impressive if muslims ever since Mohammed were saying that the universe was expanding and that scientists 1400 years later confirmed that.

But no, not even mohammed himself said such a thing. NOBODY did.

It's all just post hoc nonsense.
Give me a "scientific miracle fact" that hasn't been discovered yet and then we'll talk again if and when science confirms it. But you can't, can you?

Will you please give me chapter and verse no. ? Thanks .

Quran 86:6-7

It's another one of those things that Quran got completely wrong and which was "borrowed" from the ancient greeks, like so many other things. It's almost a copy-paste from Hippocrates and makes the same errors.

 

[Ruh]

Does it, really?

Seems to me like countries that have adopted Islam as their "national religion", or where the majority of them are muslim, aren't doing all that well.

And I'm not even talking about countries ravaged by civil wars and sectarian violence between muslim denominations (where different islamic beliefs are a MAJOR factor of the division and hatred as well as a motivation).

No, I'm talking about the state of human rights, civilian oppression, lack of liberty, treatment of girls and women, types of punishments for "crimes" (quotes, because you and me both know that in many of these countries, you'll get extreme physical punishment, even death penalty, for things that aren't even considered crimes in the secular west) etc.

Looking at the state of the world and the place and state of islamic nations within that context.... that they are doing "fantastic" is the very last thing I would say....

I wouldn't want to live there even if they paid me.
Heck, my muslim family wouldn't even want to live there.

No country has Islam ( Islam as Qur'an proposed ) in place . That is best I can say . The rest of your concerns are realistic .

 

[Ruh]

Quran 86:6-7

It's another one of those things that Quran got completely wrong and which was "borrowed" from the ancient greeks, like so many other things. It's almost a copy-paste from Hippocrates and makes the same errors.

I was looking at ṣul'b (صُّلْب) in 86:7 which also means Loin . Hence if you put this meaning in the verse it says -

[086:006] He is created from a gushing fluid
[086:007] That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Sher Ali , Pickthal , Palmer , Sale , Rodwell and Arberry all translated Sul'b as Loin .

 

[Ruh]

Quran 86:6-7

It's another one of those things that Quran got completely wrong and which was "borrowed" from the ancient greeks, like so many other things. It's almost a copy-paste from Hippocrates and makes the same errors.

Another thing to mention , 86:6 is not talking about semen or sperm as the Arabic of semen/sperm is Nut'fa ( نُطْفَةٍ) while the verse is talking about a fluid which is a mixture all elements .

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No country has Islam ( Islam as Qur'an proposed ) in place .

Okay. So I guess your claim that "billions of followers" doing ok is then shown to be false.
Instead, it seems as if your position rather is that most of those "billions of followers" don't follow TRUE Islam (tm).

That is best I can say

Which contradicts the claim you made previously

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I was looking at ṣul'b (صُّلْب) in 86:7 which also means Loin . Hence if you put this meaning in the verse it says -

[086:006] He is created from a gushing fluid
[086:007] That issued from between the loins and ribs.

Sher Ali , Pickthal , Palmer , Sale , Rodwell and Arberry all translated Sul'b as Loin .

More post-hoc re-interpretation following secular scientific progress.

Which in this case, also still results in incorrect statements btw.
Sperm is not "between the loins and ribs".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Another thing to mention , 86:6 is not talking about semen or sperm as the Arabic of semen/sperm is Nut'fa ( نُطْفَةٍ) while the verse is talking about a fluid which is a mixture all elements .

Which doesn't come from between the backbone/loins and ribs either.

It's painfully obvious how wrong this is.
It's also painfully obvious that it got this information from ancient greeks. That's where this comes from. There's plenty more examples like that, where it completely incorporated ancient greek knowledge, including the exact same mistakes the ancient greeks made.

But you can't have that and will never admit to it, as it would be faith shattering.
So you will come up with excuses and "re interpretation" to wave it away instead.



This is not my first time discussing the "miracles" of the quran.

 

[Ruh]

Okay. So I guess your claim that "billions of followers" doing ok is then shown to be false.
Instead, it seems as if your position rather is that most of those "billions of followers" don't follow TRUE Islam (tm).

Which contradicts the claim you made previously

You are taking my words out of the context . While I was debating with Daniel I was quoting that in terms of contemporary vocabulary system in the language inline with the available knowledge . Please do not argue just for the sake of arguments . I am time constrained . Try to stick to the OP .

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are taking my words out of the context . While I was debating with Daniel I was quoting that in terms of contemporary vocabulary system in the language inline with the available knowledge . Please do not argue just for the sake of arguments . I am time constrained . Try to stick to the OP .

I am doing no such thing.

CLEARLY it didn't serve those "billions" well.

Their countries are a mess, their societies are a mess and their trackrecord in contribution to modern science is nihil.

So please, if you really think I am "taking it out of context", then explain to me exactly HOW you think it has served these "billions of people" well? How do you define "well" here? "Well" in what sense? Because I'm not seeing it.

 

[Ruh]

More post-hoc re-interpretation following secular scientific progress.

Which in this case, also still results in incorrect statements btw.
Sperm is not "between the loins and ribs".

Your mind is set .I can not do much about it . As you are a critic of Qur'an , you should know classical Arabic and its nitty-gritty . Do you know it ?

 

[Ruh]

This verse was revealed to disbelievers, primarily, those living at the time of Muhammad. My question is, how and when did the disbelievers see that the skies and earth were a single entity? And when did they witness that God parted them? If they didnt see such a thing, why would Allah expect them to believe He did such a thing?

Well in 21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see .... 'See/ير' in فعل مضارع , hence this observance is open for anytime to come in future and as well as in present . It is not a physical visionary realization rather a realization through the understanding and knowledge of the creation .

 

[Shad]

I just don't want to repeat , I have posted for Danieldemol for what you asked .

You tagged me not another user. I never asked for anything.

 

[Shad]

Your mind is set .I can not do much about it . As you are a critic of Qur'an , you should know classical Arabic and its nitty-gritty . Do you know it ?

Fake standard. You posted translations without this standard to convince people the Quran had modern science in it. Now you put forward a standard that one must know Arabic to refute your claim. Double-standards. Try again

 

[Ruh]

Fake standard. You posted translations without this standard to convince people the Quran had modern science in it. Now you put forward a standard that one must know Arabic to refute your claim. Double-standards. Try again

Accusations after accusations without any realistic example so far . Try again

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Your mind is set

Because the facts are known.
Neither the sperm nore the "fluid" that carries the sperm when ejaculating comes from between "the backbone / loins and the ribs". It just doesn't.

Yes, my mind is pretty much set. It's also pretty much in line with the facts.
You know what isn't in line with the facts? The quran. Which is what this is about.
It's not about what I "believe" or "think". It's about what the facts actually are and how the quran is wrong about the facts.

But you can't have that... So know you play on my person, as if it is just "my opinion" or "belief" that semen or the fluid it comes in isn't produced "between the backbone and the ribs".

Well, sorry, it's not. It factually isn't produced there and the Quran is wrong about it in the exact same way that Hippocrates was wrong about it centuries earlier.

I can not do much about it

Indeed, you can not do much about the facts nore about the Quran being wrong about said facts.
The only thing you can do, is accept and acknowledge it.

Or off course, you could try and challenge the science and try and show how the stuff that men ejaculate during orgaism really is produced in the chest. Good luck with that.

But more then likely though, you'll come up with the excuse of "ow, but in ancient classical arabic this word here can also mean that and that can mean that and if we read it this and that way THEN it's not totally absurd... checkmate, atheist!"

As you are a critic of Qur'an

I sure am. But that's not relevant here.
Here, it's about facts. And the quran is wrong about the facts. Clearly wrong.

Why can't you just acknowledge that?

, you should know classical Arabic and its nitty-gritty . Do you know it ?

No and don't care to either.
I'll go ahead and assume that I'ld never get as fluent in it as the people that translated those verses anyway, so why would I bother? I have FAR better and more usefull things to do with my time.