Big Bounce ( no Bang )- Qur'an says ::The fate of the universe.

[randix]

Our imagination is often inclined to "clarify" words and phrases that are metaphorical, ambiguous or vague by interpreting them in a particular way, and by adding detail. That might be one reason spiritualists and fortune-tellers are so successful at fooling people.

We imagine meaning and detail in such things as the positions of stars, placement of cast bones and stirred tea leaves, the appearance of disemboweled entrails of animals, random noise, and obscure, nonsensical or confusing scriptural text.

 

[Shad]

Our imagination is often inclined to "clarify" words and phrases that are metaphorical, ambiguous or vague by interpreting them in a particular way, and by adding detail. That might be one reason spiritualists and fortune-tellers are so successful at fooling people.

I foresee a vacation you are going to take in a few years to a place you do not live. That will be $99.99 please! /s

 

[Ruh]

The Qur'an was written by those who followed Mohammed - an Arab warlord.
The book essentially takes the bible and rewrites it. It is an incredibly violent
and intolerant text. I see it as having no authority whatsoever.

You have the right to say whatever you think , doesn't matter how much naive it would be . But as OP proposes , this thread is about science and Qur'an , please feel free to share your input strictly to the topic . Thanks .

 

[Ruh]

Allah could easily have explained to the Arabs these concepts and explained the necessary tools and observations to make. You are limiting the power of not only Allah here, but the abilities of the seventh century Arab peoples to follow instructions.

GOD works in HIS own way and it is proven to work fantastic for Billions of HIS Servants in 21st century . If it didn't work for you , tough luck my friend .

Google defines celestial as follows;
celestial
/sɪˈlɛstɪəl/

adjective

1. positioned in or relating to the sky, or outer space as observed in astronomy.
   "a celestial body"
   
   Similar:
   (in) space
   heavenly
   
   astronomical
   
   extraterrestrial
   
   stellar
   
   planetary
   
   in the sky
   in the heavens
   superterrestrial
   
   Opposite:
   terrestrial
   
   earthly
2. belonging or relating to heaven.
   • "the celestial city"
     
     Similar:
     heavenly
     
     holy
     
     saintly
     
     divine
     
     godly
     
     godlike
     
     ethereal
     
     paradisical
     
     Elysian
     
     spiritual
     
     empyrean
     
     superlunary
     
     immortal
     
     angelic
     
     seraphic
     
     cherubic
     
     blessed
     
     beatific
     
     blissful
     
     sublime
     
     
     Opposite:
     hellish
     
     mundane

As you will note even in English celestial is the opposite of earthly. Celestial simply does not include earth. In the context of the Quran even less so.

What my technical point was and also to probe the context the of verse , if celestial affairs include planetary system , it includes earth also (technically again , not linguistically) . Hence if Big Bounce may affect the celestial bodies , it has to affect the earth also .

Interestingly , very modern understanding of the term celestial objects are interchanged with the term 'astronomical objects' , hence it is redundant to argue its veracity in the context of the verse .

" An astronomical object or celestial object is a naturally occurring physical entity, association, or structure that exists in the observable universe"

Astronomical object - Wikipedia

Here I rest my case

 

[Ruh]

So? Now you stated the universe and Earth are separate which they are not.. You also just used a definition that thinks the universe is higher up (altitude) when it really surrounds us as in encompassing. More so you are changing and picking the definition to fit science without evidence. Try again. Maybe think about what is said instead of more copy/pasting. More so you are changing and picking the definition to fit science without evidence.

Remember I said make an effort. Do so.

I just don't want to repeat , I have posted for Danieldemol for what you asked . Please see few of my previous posts for him , hopefully you will know . Thanks .

 

[Ruh]

Which dictionary is this from?

It is from Hans Wehr 4th ed., page 504.

 

[PruePhillip]

You have the right to say whatever you think , doesn't matter how much naive it would be . But as OP proposes , this thread is about science and Qur'an , please feel free to share your input strictly to the topic . Thanks .

Sure, Islamic science. Not much to write about - not these days, anyway.
Can you name any Islamic Cosmologists, theoretical physicists, astro-
physicists and the like?

 

[Ruh]

Sure, Islamic science. Not much to write about - not these days, anyway.
Can you name any Islamic Cosmologists, theoretical physicists, astro-
physicists and the like?

Thanks a lot for your understanding . Yeah , here is a glimpse -

Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world - Wikipedia

In fact the European astronomy is highly indebted to the the contributions of the Muslim astronomers and their hard works in the field .

 

[Native]

Perhaps knowing Arabic helps a lot in better understanding the Qur’anic expression, and verse meanings as was perceived at the time.

And:

I am not so sure about the other ancient scriptures but in Qur'an the word سماء has quite a range of implications with the context . It can be used in denoting the whole universe to our visible sky ( atmosphere) etc.

My approach to this topic is based on studies of Comparative Mythology and Religion with my focus om the numerous Stories of Creation and my conclusion is that these stories concern the pre-condition and factual formation of the Milky Way. Some of these stories also describes some eternal elementary principles from which the creation took place in their cyclical perception of everything.
That is: I´m taking an approach which goes several thousands of years back to the human sources.

 

[Native]

Thanks a lot for your understanding . Yeah , here is a glimpse -
Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world - Wikipedia
In fact the European astronomy is highly indebted to the the contributions of the Muslim astronomers and their hard works in the field .

Sure, but where can one find an Islamic explanation of the Creation?

 

[Ruh]

And:

My approach to this topic is based on studies of Comparative Mythology and Religion with my focus om the numerous Stories of Creation and my conclusion is that these stories concern the pre-condition and factual formation of the Milky Way. Some of these stories also describes some eternal elementary principles from which the creation took place in their cyclical perception of everything.
That is: I´m taking an approach which goes several thousands of years back to the human sources.

OIC . This would be an excellent approach . My well wishes in your endeavor .Keep us posted with your discoveries .

 

[Ruh]

Sure, but where can one find an Islamic explanation of the Creation?

Qur'an is the only source of Islam . So this is the book you have to venture . Also please if you may have time look into the below...
Is the GOD of Qur’an an evolutionist?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Qur’an has the following to say about the beginning of the universe:

21:30 Do not those who disbelieve see that the skies and the earth were a single entity? Then WE parted them ……

So the universe started from a primordial singularity and they parted . But the verse didn’t mention how they were parted. We have the answer from the other verse of the Qur’an but from the same chapter. We have it at the end .

And then we found this:

51:47 And the sky WE constructed with force/strength and indeed WE are expanding it….

Almighty GOD used a force ( !? ) and as a result the universe started to expand . Interesting here to mention that the original Arabic word of expanding (لموسعون) is in its Imperfect Verbal form (IV), meaning this expansion is happening now and will continue in future. Therefore an expanding universe is confirmed.

Meanwhile before going to the doom of the universe, Qur’an discussed so many other relevant topics concerning cosmology which I feel not to bring it up here to save time and space . Let us stick with the topic and finish it up.

Now what is the fate of the universe? Big Crunch, Big Rip or Big Bounce? Here is what the Qur’an proposes:

21:104 The day WE will fold the sky like folding of the page of books as WE began the first creation, We will repeat it – a promise upon US. Indeed WE shall do it.

The verse proposes us :

01- The universe is flat like a page. (WMAP Data !?)

02- It will bounce back like rolling back of a page.

03- The first creation started not with a Bang rather a Bounce.

04- The same process will be repeated again to the creation of another new universe.

Science didn’t reach to the established conclusions to some of the facts /theories/hypothesizes pertaining Big Bang and Big Bounce still but it is quite refreshing to notice that Qur’an has discussed them boldly 1400 years back .

Ruh .

Why is that nobody understood these verses like that before science discovered the expanding universe?
No muslims were researching this. No muslims were correcting scientists back when they thought the universe was static.

Sounds like this is, once again, nothing but post hoc rationalisation attempts at keeping their islamic faith relevant in the 21st century in light of all scientific progress.

Now tell us all about how the author of the Quran believes that sperm cells originate in the chest of man, between the ribs and the backbone.

 

[Native]

Qur'an is the only source of Islam . So this is the book you have to venture . Also please if you may have time look into the below...
Is the GOD of Qur’an an evolutionist?

Thanks, but I´m not specifically interested if a favorite chosen deity is an evolutionist or not.

In the cultural comparative Creation Myths, all kinds of male and female deities can represent all kinds of creative forces and evolutionary systems.

And they all also just can represent firm physical or luminous stages which even can be understood in scientifically terms.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Perhaps knowing Arabic helps a lot in better understanding the Qur’anic expression, and verse meanings as was perceived at the time.

Doesn't Allah speak english?

 

[randix]

Why is that nobody understood these verses like that before science discovered the expanding universe? ... Sounds like this is, once again, nothing but post hoc rationalisation ...

Exactly.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

GOD works in HIS own way and it is proven to work fantastic for Billions of HIS Servants in 21st century

Does it, really?

Seems to me like countries that have adopted Islam as their "national religion", or where the majority of them are muslim, aren't doing all that well.

And I'm not even talking about countries ravaged by civil wars and sectarian violence between muslim denominations (where different islamic beliefs are a MAJOR factor of the division and hatred as well as a motivation).

No, I'm talking about the state of human rights, civilian oppression, lack of liberty, treatment of girls and women, types of punishments for "crimes" (quotes, because you and me both know that in many of these countries, you'll get extreme physical punishment, even death penalty, for things that aren't even considered crimes in the secular west) etc.

Looking at the state of the world and the place and state of islamic nations within that context.... that they are doing "fantastic" is the very last thing I would say....

I wouldn't want to live there even if they paid me.
Heck, my muslim family wouldn't even want to live there.

 

[Windwalker]

Commentary , Islamic scholar have nothing to do in it . Qur'an is there in front you . Read it and judge it .

But if no one read it like that before the 19th century, and folks like you do after the Big Bang theory was proposed, that means you are interpreting it in the light of a modern understanding. You read backwards into the text a modern understanding. The fact no interpretation like yours exists prior to modern times, proves this is what is going on.

You're fooling yourself into thinking that is what the original author meant. It's a trick of reading scripture. "The scripture here means it foresaw what modern science said. See how the words fit our modern understanding? It's right there on the pages in black and white." It's a magic trick, where you suggest the meaning first, then when the read it, oh miracle of miracles, it does say what you said!

Again, find any scholar prior to modern times who read that from the texts, and you might have an argument. Otherwise, it's purely a trick of your mind you are playing on yourself because you want it to be true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Thanks a lot for your understanding . Yeah , here is a glimpse -

Astronomy in the medieval Islamic world - Wikipedia

In fact the European astronomy is highly indebted to the the contributions of the Muslim astronomers and their hard works in the field .

That was almost a millenium ago.
What have muslims contributed to science in the last, say, 500 years?

Go look at the list of nobel prize winners and try to count the muslims.
It's practically nothing. And the few that won a nobel, was in peace and economics. So not in science.

Not saying that muslims are "stupid" or whatever, but it certainly is remarkable, that the people who hold this book which supposedly contains all these marvelous scientific truths, which supposedly weren't discovered by scientists until 1400 years later, require non-muslims to do the discoveries for them, which they can then post hoc claim to have known all along, because it was in there book.......

Why didn't a muslim get the nobel of discovering the expanding universe?


...because literally no muslim knew about it before non-muslim scientists discovered it.
And then the post hoc rationalisation began. That's why.

 

[Native]

Qur’an has the following to say about the beginning of the universe:

21:30 Do not those who disbelieve see that the skies and the earth were a single entity? Then WE parted them ……

So the universe started from a primordial singularity and they parted . But the verse didn’t mention how they were parted. We have the answer from the other verse of the Qur’an but from the same chapter. We have it at the end .

And then we found this:

51:47 And the sky WE constructed with force/strength and indeed WE are expanding it….

Almighty GOD used a force ( !? ) and as a result the universe started to expand . Interesting here to mention that the original Arabic word of expanding (لموسعون) is in its Imperfect Verbal form (IV), meaning this expansion is happening now and will continue in future. Therefore an expanding universe is confirmed.

Meanwhile before going to the doom of the universe, Qur’an discussed so many other relevant topics concerning cosmology which I feel not to bring it up here to save time and space . Let us stick with the topic and finish it up.

Now what is the fate of the universe? Big Crunch, Big Rip or Big Bounce? Here is what the Qur’an proposes:

21:104 The day WE will fold the sky like folding of the page of books as WE began the first creation, We will repeat it – a promise upon US. Indeed WE shall do it.

The verse proposes us :

01- The universe is flat like a page. (WMAP Data !?)

02- It will bounce back like rolling back of a page.

03- The first creation started not with a Bang rather a Bounce.

04- The same process will be repeated again to the creation of another new universe.

Science didn’t reach to the established conclusions to some of the facts /theories/hypothesizes pertaining Big Bang and Big Bounce still but it is quite refreshing to notice that Qur’an has discussed them boldly 1400 years back .

Ruh .

I in fact agree in the "bouncing description" - but NOT as a creation of the entire Universe.

Ancient cultures didn´t know of anything else but what can be observed out in the day- and night time, the Sun and Moon, 5 wandering planets, stars, star constellations and the light contours of the Milky Way band encircling the Earth.

That is: When speaking of and referring to a creation, this at the most included the Milky Way. In several creation stories, the preconditions of the creation of the Milky Way was described with "chaotic rivers" which came together in a center causing a huge light that created the first firm matter. (Very much like the modern explanation of the Solar System creation)

As this creation took place in the Milky Way center, all other formations of stars - and our Solar System, was "driven out from this center", i.e. "bounced out" from the center of creation.

In the biblical terms, this out-bouncing creation from a center = "Garden of Eden" was scholarly interpreted as a human expulsion from the Garden of Eden as a divine revenge, which is nonsense deriving from a simple scholarly lack of mythical, cosmological and astronomical knowledge.

So: In my opinion we all were, and everything in our galaxy, was once BOUNCED OUT But this has nothing to do with a creation of the entire Universe.