Biblical Scripture, a Hard Look

[Rise]

Thank you

According to popular opinion God has said that God hates.

I am saying that maybe, just maybe, God has said that certain things that people do are hating God.

Do you want to hate God? Is it possible?

The possibility of our view of God changing based on such a scribal error would have to be virtually nil considering that all throughout the Bible it is affirmed that God hates sin.

Deuteronomy 16:22
Deuteronomy 32:19
Leviticus 20:23
Psalms 5:5
Proverbs 6:16-19
Hosea 9:15
Zechariah 11:8
Malachi 1:3

There are more that could be pulled out, but the point is that there is no way every verse dealing with this issue could have all been changed by the chance of scribal error. Even less likely that that one flawed manuscript then becomes the basis for every copy ever made afterwards.
Which is also more unlikely yet when you consider that in times past the books of the Bible were not always compiled into one scroll but were instead individual scrolls.

 

[savagewind]

Deuteronomy 32:19 seems to say spurn, not hate and Deuteronomy 16:22 might be written backwards like Proverbs might be.

 

[savagewind]

It's kinda cute that you think that Lev 20:23 means God hates because it seems to mean "a sickening dread" which is something I AM SURE God never feels. LOL

It might mean that by their manner of life, they cause a sickening dread among themselves.

 

[savagewind]

Should I go on?

 

[savagewind]

The word hate in most instances seems to mean to make an enemy of.

Does God really make himself an enemy of people?

 

[Rise]

Deuteronomy 32:19 seems to say spurn, not hate and Deuteronomy 16:22 might be written backwards like Proverbs might be.

Others translate it as despised, or abhorred. In fact, most do.

Abhor definition: regard with disgust and hatred.
Despise definition: feel contempt or a deep repugnance for.
Look up hate in a thesaurus, abhor is a synonym. Love is the antonym, or opposite.
Hate definition: intense or passionate dislike.

The definition of the Hebrew word used for "spurn":
(SN 5006) nā̓a – properly, treat disrespectfully, with contempt ("reject with insult"); moral, spiritual repulsion which can include blasphemy (BDB), i.e. reversing spiritual values.

Does the Hebrew definition not also sound like an intense dislike to you?

It's kinda cute that you think that Lev 20:23 means God hates because it seems to mean "a sickening dread" which is something I AM SURE God never feels. LOL

It might mean that by their manner of life, they cause a sickening dread among themselves.

The word Hebrew word used in that verse for abhor is:
(SN 6973) qû – properly, stomach – hence, find unbearable (dreadful); making someone "tired to death," wanting desperately to get rid of something (or get away from); loathe to the point of "emotional nausea" ("sickening dread," BDB).

Most versions translate it as abhor, and most other versions translate it as detest.

I already covered abhor above.
Detest definition: dislike intensely.
Detest is also a synonym for hate.

So, the translations and Hebrew all support reading that with an understanding of hate.

Deuteronomy 16:22 might be written backwards like Proverbs might be

Now you are getting into trying to claim that multiple verses across multiple books have all suffered a simultaneous scribal error, and for every verse you add on top of that you exponentially decrease the odds that such a thing could happen.

As I explained, that scenerio doesn't mathematically or historically work. Especially when you have many more than two verses to account for that refer to God as hating sin.

Should I go on?

Please do.

 

[savagewind]

The word Hebrew word used in that verse for abhor is:
(SN 6973) qû – properly, stomach – hence, find unbearable (dreadful); making someone "tired to death," wanting desperately to get rid of something (or get away from); loathe to the point of "emotional nausea" ("sickening dread," BDB).
.

OK! The Bible says Holy God Almighty finds some things "unbearable", making him "tired", "nauseated", wanting desperately to get rid of something.

I am sorry, that does not describe The God I think I know.

 

[Rise]

OK! The Bible says Holy God Almighty finds some things "unbearable", making him "tired", "nauseated", wanting desperately to get rid of something.

I am sorry, that does not describe The God I think I know.

You have the choice to believe what you want to, but that doesn't change what the Bible says.
You've got at least a dozen other Biblical verses you need to reconcile with your view of God if you want to claim God doesn't hate sin.

 

[savagewind]

You have the choice to believe what you want to, but that doesn't change what the Bible says.
You've got at least a dozen other Biblical verses you need to reconcile with your view of God if you want to claim God doesn't hate sin.

Is your god the creator like my god is? Then he is loving hate because he made it possible for so many things to hate. Why would anyone do that?

Can you admit that sinning is hating God?

YOU say God made things to hate. Does that make sense to you? If it does, then tell us how the first man is said to have been made in God's image?

 

[savagewind]

I think that whoever had the Bible copied thought it was not OK to hate God so he switched it to read the other way around.

God made things that can hate because loving and hating is indubitably linked to freedom.

Is God free in your opinion? I think that God is NOT free if God hates.

 

[savagewind]

It is written that God is love. Well, in this crazy place called Earth love hates.

 

[Rise]

More Scripture:

Psalms 36:2
Psalms 45:7
Psalms 97:10
Proverbs 8:13
Romans 12:9
Revelation 3:15-16

Can you admit that sinning is hating God?

Your statement is close, but not quite.

Psalms 97:10
Romans 12:9
Matthew 6:24

To love God is the same as hating sin. I believe to the extent you love God is the extent to which you will hate sin.

I don't really have any Biblical reason to proclaim that everyone who sins in any way automatically hates God. Those like David and Peter loved God, or at least had a heart after God and wanted to love Him more fully, but in their weakness they sinned.

I think that whoever had the Bible copied thought it was not OK to hate God so he switched it to read the other way around.

There's no historical or textual evidence that such a thing ever happened.

Is your god the creator like my god is? Then he is loving hate because he made it possible for so many things to hate. Why would anyone do that?
...
God made things that can hate because loving and hating is indubitably linked to freedom.

Is God free in your opinion? I think that God is NOT free if God hates.

You're getting into philosophical arguments, not Biblical arguments.
Biblically, it's beyond dispute that God hates sin.
If you want to talk about why God hates sin, it helps to accept that He does and then look to the Bible for more insight on why.

Your objection to this fact may stem from not having a full understanding of what sin does. Sin separates us from relationship with God. Sin results in evil being done by one person to another. Sin leads to death.

Of course a loving Father would hate the thing which separates His children from Him and leads to their suffering and death.
That's why love hates evil.

Love is also just.
Those who delight in evil and won't repent will face judgement for what they've done, justice will be done.
That's why justice is also a huge part of the Biblical narrative, both OT and NT.

All of those conclusions can be drawn from Scripture.

 

[savagewind]

If you want to talk about why God hates sin, it helps to accept that He does and then look to the Bible for more insight on why.

What an interesting mistake I just saw.

What I think you wrote was; "If you want to talk about why God sins". Your edit did not catch up to my reading it.

Anyway, people make all kinds of stupid mistakes on the forum but some people truly believe that there are no stupid mistakes in the Bible.

I think your argument is good and better than mine.

 

[savagewind]

More Scripture:

Psalms 36:2
Psalms 45:7
Psalms 97:10
Proverbs 8:13
Romans 12:9
Revelation 3:15-16


Your statement is close, but not quite.

Psalms 97:10
Romans 12:9
Matthew 6:24

I will read those later. Thank you.

To love God is the same as hating sin. I believe to the extent you love God is the extent to which you will hate sin.

I agree with this. I do not doubt that to hate sin is the right way except for people who can't see to separate the hating from the treating.
I think that God does not hate. I can see that some, most, or all of the scriptures you have graciously shared can be viewed differently. They are true, but not like you think they are imo.

I don't really have any Biblical reason to proclaim that everyone who sins in any way automatically hates God. Those like David and Peter loved God, or at least had a heart after God and wanted to love Him more fully, but in their weakness, they sinned.

I agree. There are sins and there are sins which cause the will of God to be thwarted and those are the ones of which it is written that they show the person is a hater of God.

So, someone might think he searches for God to do the will of God and someone has written that to do certain things, like you have shared scriptures of, is to hate God and they are the reason why the person is not being successful in his search.

There's no historical or textual evidence that such a thing ever happened.

Which is true about most of the Bible.

Your objection to this fact may stem from not having a full understanding of what sin does. Sin separates us from relationship with God.

I do not doubt it.

Sin results in evil being done by one person to another. Sin leads to death.

I suspect that scriptures which say "God hates" are about evil being done by a person against The Will of God. And, yes, sin leads to death.

Of course a loving Father would hate the thing which separates His children from Him and leads to their suffering and death.

Oh, really? So? Is Romans 8:38 not true, according to you?

 

[savagewind]

@Rise Is Romans 8:38-39 not true?

38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,
39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

YOU say sin is "the thing which separates His children from Him".

Is that not contradicting what is written in Romans?

 

[Rise]

I agree with this. I do not doubt that to hate sin is the right way except for people who can't see to separate the hating from the treating.
I think that God does not hate. I can see that some, most, or all of the scriptures you have graciously shared can be viewed differently. They are true, but not like you think they are imo.

I think you may be getting hung up, as many do, on modern definitions or understandings of hate.

It's not unlike people who think it's wrong for Jesus or God to get angry, because they associate anger with sin. Well, that's not true. There is righteous anger, which is not selfish, but based in love and justice. The problem is most people in our society are only equated with unrighteous anger, born out of sin and selfishness, which results in more sin and harm.

In the same way, people connotated hate to be associated with sin; not realizing that there is a righteous hate in the sense of putting away sin from your presence, having no desire for it, recognizing it as evil, and not having association with it.
We see this principle echoed in the NT as well: 1 Corinthians 5:11-13.

Oh, really? So? Is Romans 8:38 not true, according to you?

Look at the context of the whole of scripture. Yes, nothing can separate us from the love of God - but it doesn't say anything about separating us from fellowship with God and dwelling in His eternal presence.

There is ample scripture to show that such a separation exists, and there are consequences for our choices (This is only a start from the Gospels. I could pull more out of the rest of the NT and OT if I needed to).
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 13:36-43
John 5:28-29
John 15:1-6
Mark 9:43
Matthew 10:28
John 3:18
John 8:51
John 6:35-37

God died for us while we were still sinners (Romans 5:8). So, yes, He continues to love those who are in sin.
His love doesn't cease for his wayward rebellious Children, but that doesn't guarantee they will abide in His presence. The later requires them to make certain choices, concerning submission to God's way and acceptance of His salvation, that lead to restored relationship with God.

Which is true about most of the Bible.

That would be a good thing then: There being no historical or textual evidence that anything in the Bible has been purposely changed to alter theology.
Remember, I said there's no historical or textual evidence that the Bible has purposely been changed to alter all those verses I gave you.

 

[savagewind]

@Rise. Fine. Who reads Proverbs 6:16-19 and thinks of himself?

You know God loves you. When you read it who do you think it is about?

Isn't is always about the other guy?

 

[savagewind]

That would be a good thing then: There being no historical or textual evidence that anything in the Bible has been purposely changed to alter theology.

You do understand what theology is. Don't you?

Do I have the correct definition for it? "the study of the nature of God"

Do you really think that the study of God is a righteous thing to do?

 

[Rise]

@Rise. Fine. Who reads Proverbs 6:16-19 and thinks of himself?

You know God loves you. When you read it who do you think it is about?

Isn't is always about the other guy?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

You do understand what theology is. Don't you?

Do I have the correct definition for it? "the study of the nature of God"

Do you really think that the study of God is a righteous thing to do?

I'm not sure what your point here is either, but with regards to your last question:

Acts of the Apostles 17:11
2 Timothy 3:13-17
Deuteronomy 17:18-20
Joshua 1:8
Proverbs 25:2
Ezra 7:10
2 Thessalonians 2:15
1 Corinthians 4:6
Romans 15:4
Psalms 119:14-16 (and pretty much all of Psalm 119)

Studying the Scripture to understand God, His character, His ways, His expectations, His salvation, His promises, and even searching out His mysteries, is always good thing.
In fact, in the OT, it was commanded that a king must do so.

 

[savagewind]

Acts of the Apostles 17:11
.

I have to leave soon so this one I can respond to. I say the study of God and you say the study of scripture. I think you should know God and scripture are not the same.

You are making me laugh and I appreciate that.