Biblical prophesy

[sojourner]

You do not have to believe the Bible to understand the Bible. That's in fact not what I claimed. You have to have the Spirit of God helping you in order to understand the Bible. You will not and may not know the things of God without God showing you.

Maybe I missed something. Show me again what example you provided me with.

The Bible, though, is not “of God.” It is “of human beings.” And understanding what is written is a matter of critical study, an exegetical methodology and a hermeneutic of unbiased approach. That’s what you’ve missed.

 

[74x12]

Now you have changed your claim to "Believing the Bible is false". You base your posts on beliefs, others base their posts on knowledge. Learn the difference.

So you have certain knowledge God is not real and the Bible is false? I thought you were more open minded than that.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You do not have to believe the Bible to understand the Bible. That's in fact not what I claimed. You have to have the Spirit of God helping you in order to understand the Bible. You will not and may not know the things of God without God showing you.

Maybe I missed something. Show me again what example you provided me with.

That is more bogus nonsense. You are assuming that the "Spirit of God" is a real thing.

Let me change my questions that you ducked earlier:

Does one have to have the Spirit of Zeus to understand Greek myths? Does one have to have the Spirit of Odin to understand Norse myths?

You are making the extremely gross error of assuming that your beliefs are right. That leads to this circular reasoning of yours. You are guilty of doing what you charge others of doing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you have certain knowledge God is not real and the Bible is false? I thought you were more open minded than that.

Did I make that claim? You are not debating properly. I can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong time after time after time. That does not mean that "God is not real", it only means that the Bible is wrong. You are jumping to incorrect conclusions.

Conflating the Bible with the "Word of God" is an unjustified assumption that Christians often make.

 

[74x12]

The Bible, though, is not “of God.” It is “of human beings.” And understanding what is written is a matter of critical study, an exegetical methodology and a hermeneutic of unbiased approach. That’s what you’ve missed.

I know where you're coming from and I agree there is a lot of benefit to be had from the studies of serious Bible scholars. However, although it's beneficial to know these things you cannot put such knowledge above the guidance of the holy Spirit. Without which you may not know the truth. If the Bible scholar does not have the holy Spirit; then they're blind leaders of the blind. It's essential to recognize that fact.

So all your Catholic seminary knowledge is surely useful and so is the knowledge learned by a Jew studying under Rabbis. Or anyone who studies deeply into the scriptures. But, without the holy Spirit it's not going to be enough. No one knows the things of the Spirit of God except God shows them.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know where you're coming from and I agree there is a lot of benefit to be had from the studies of serious Bible scholars. However, although it's beneficial to know these things you cannot put such knowledge above the guidance of the holy Spirit. Without which you may not know the truth. If the Bible scholar does not have the holy Spirit; then they're blind leaders of the blind. It's essential to recognize that fact.

So all your Catholic seminary knowledge is surely useful and so is the knowledge learned by a Jew studying under Rabbis. Or anyone who studies deeply into the scriptures. But, without the holy Spirit it's not going to be enough. No one knows the things of the Spirit of God except God shows them.

An empty claim that I am more than sure that you cannot support.

I see that you are still ducking questions that you cannot answer.

 

[dianaiad]

I did. When people are rude it helps to keep them honest and polite. Breaking up a post excessively is a mild attempt at quote mining. It is not an honest debating technique. It demonstrates that the person cannot properly refute another.

Well, it's the first time I've ever come across that rule, and I've been debating people on the 'net for 25 years, plus or minus (and yes, I WAS around when usenet was new and access to the internet could clobber me for $300 a month or more. Really.)

So I do hope you don't mind if I don't think your rule applies to anybody but you?

 

[74x12]

Did I make that claim? You are not debating properly. I can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong time after time after time. That does not mean that "God is not real", it only means that the Bible is wrong. You are jumping to incorrect conclusions.

Conflating the Bible with the "Word of God" is an unjustified assumption that Christians often make.

Then you believe in God but the Bible is wrong? Is that so?

The problem is that you *think* you can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong. I do not believe for a minute that you understand it. I'm trying to change your perspective because you're locked into the idea that you do know something. It is the holy Spirit that teaches us and if your heart is closed to the Spirit of God then you can't learn from the scriptures.

That is more bogus nonsense. You are assuming that the "Spirit of God" is a real thing.

Let me change my questions that you ducked earlier:

Does one have to have the Spirit of Zeus to understand Greek myths? Does one have to have the Spirit of Odin to understand Norse myths?

You are making the extremely gross error of assuming that your beliefs are right. That leads to this circular reasoning of yours. You are guilty of doing what you charge others of doing.

Alright, so do the Greek myths claim that you need Zeus' help to understand them? Or do the Norse myths claim that you need Odin's help to understand them? If so then that should be taken into account when studying them. Rather than just assuming they're fake.

Unfortunately, you're not going to understand the scriptures or the things of God even if you take 1,000 years of seminary training or train under the best Jewish Rabbi for 10,000 years. Not without the Spirit of God.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, it's the first time I've ever come across that rule, and I've been debating people on the 'net for 25 years, plus or minus (and yes, I WAS around when usenet was new and access to the internet could clobber me for $300 a month or more. Really.)

So I do hope you don't mind if I don't think your rule applies to anybody but you?

I won't put up with rudeness. And yes, the rule applies to me too.

Excessively breaking up a post is rude. It is the same as interrupting someone as the speak.

 

[74x12]

An empty claim that I am more than sure that you cannot support.

I see that you are still ducking questions that you cannot answer.

Are you serious? What question did I duck? He didn't even ask any questions in that post.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Then you believe in God but the Bible is wrong? Is that so?

The problem is that you *think* you can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong. I do not believe for a minute that you understand it. I'm trying to change your perspective because you're locked into the idea that you do know something. It is the holy Spirit that teaches us and if your heart is closed to the Spirit of God then you can't learn from the scriptures.

Where did I say that I believe in God? I am merely pointing out your errors. And no, I know I can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong. The problem is that some Christians, not all, cannot be honest enough to admit it. And once again you fall back on your fictitious beliefs and break the Ninth Commandment. You do not seem to understand the Ninth. It does not ban lying. It bans false witness. You may believe that you are right, but if you are wrong when you make a claim as you just did that is bearing false witness even if you believe it to be true. In other words one can bear false witness without lying.

Alright, so do the Greek myths claim that you need Zeus' help to understand them? Or do the Norse myths claim that you need Odin's help to understand them? If so then that should be taken into account when studying them. Rather than just assuming they're fake.

Unfortunately, you're not going to understand the scriptures or the things of God even if you take 1,000 years of seminary training or train under the best Jewish Rabbi for 10,000 years. Not without the Spirit of God.

Oh my, the point of the questions that you are still afraid to answer went right over your head. And you are back to your claim that you cannot support. This is rather extreme circular reasoning on your part.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you serious? What question did I duck? He didn't even ask any questions in that post.

You continually duck the questions about Greek and Norse mythology. You finally referred to it but you did not answer the questions.

 

[sojourner]

I know where you're coming from and I agree there is a lot of benefit to be had from the studies of serious Bible scholars. However, although it's beneficial to know these things you cannot put such knowledge above the guidance of the holy Spirit. Without which you may not know the truth. If the Bible scholar does not have the holy Spirit; then they're blind leaders of the blind. It's essential to recognize that fact.

So all your Catholic seminary knowledge is surely useful and so is the knowledge learned by a Jew studying under Rabbis. Or anyone who studies deeply into the scriptures. But, without the holy Spirit it's not going to be enough. No one knows the things of the Spirit of God except God shows them.

Why do you separate scholarship from Spirit guidance? Perhaps scholarship is infused with Spirit?

 

[Rational Agnostic]

I just saw this video by Aron Ra where he goes over why the prophecies of the Bible fail:

He points out quite correctly that to be valid a prophesy must be clear and have a set date. Given enough time any "prophecy" that is vague enough will be fulfilled. Quite often more than once. Lowering Bible prophecies to the level of "you will see a red car" would make all prophecy worthless.

You can watch the video if you like, but it is not a prerequisite to discuss prophecy here.

Didn't watch the video. I will say that there are prophecies that I believe would be found in the bible if the bible actually were written by an all-knowing deity. For instance, we might find prophecies specifically referring to the existence of the United States, or we might find a statement that "the State of Israel will be re-established 1948 years after the birth of Christ," etc. Prophecies like this would be pretty convincing to me that there was something quite special about the bible. But of course we find nothing of the sort when reading the bible.

 

[74x12]

Where did I say that I believe in God? I am merely pointing out your errors. And no, I know I can demonstrate that the Bible is wrong. The problem is that some Christians, not all, cannot be honest enough to admit it. And once again you fall back on your fictitious beliefs and break the Ninth Commandment. You do not seem to understand the Ninth. It does not ban lying. It bans false witness. You may believe that you are right, but if you are wrong when you make a claim as you just did that is bearing false witness even if you believe it to be true. In other words one can bear false witness without lying.

The truth will stand the test of time. You can believe that. The scriptures will be alright. It's the hearts of men that are deceitful above all things.

You're here attacking the validity of the scriptures and you're illogically saying I bear false witness for defending the scriptures. Well if the scriptures are fake then who cares? Who cares what commandments I break? Think about it. Your argument that I bear false witness makes no sense.

Oh my, the point of the questions that you are still afraid to answer went right over your head. And you are back to your claim that you cannot support. This is rather extreme circular reasoning on your part.

I understood your point; when you asked me that. I believe I countered your point.

You continually duck the questions about Greek and Norse mythology. You finally referred to it but you did not answer the questions.

I did answer it with a counter question. Do the ancient gods of Greece and Scandinavia claim that we need their help to understand the Myths?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The truth will stand the test of time. You can believe that. The scriptures will be alright. It's the hearts of men that are deceitful above all things.

You're here attacking the validity of the scriptures and you're illogically saying I bear false witness for defending the scriptures. Well if the scriptures are fake then who cares? Who cares what commandments I break? Think about it. Your argument that I bear false witness makes no sense.

Then by your standards the Bible is not "the truth". For example we know that Genesis is pretty much pure myth. Parts of it are very useful, but that does not mean all of it is true. Sometimes right does not mean always right. And no, I did not illogically say that you bore false witness. Why make such an error. I tried to explain how you were bearing false witness. I understand the Bible so I have no problem using it against you. I don't have to believe all of the nonsense in the Bible to be able to use parts of it to show how you are not following your own holy book.

I understood your point; when you asked me that. I believe I countered your point.

I did answer it with a counter question. Do the ancient gods of Greece and Scandinavia claim that we need their help to understand the Myths?

Since they did not exist they can no more make that claim than your version of God can. You do realize that not even the Bible claims that it is the "word of God". It only refers to the vague "scriptures" which could only be writings preceding that verse at best and there is no way to given to judge whether a book is a "scripture" or not.

 

[74x12]

Why do you separate scholarship from Spirit guidance? Perhaps scholarship is infused with Spirit?

I'm not saying scholarship is bad. But you should personally seek the guidance of the holy Spirit. Then let God show you what is true. The lawyers of Jesus' day shut up the key of knowledge. (Luke 11:52) They did not understand the scriptures and yet presumed to teach people the scriptures. They had little spirituality. They just trusted in their scholarly research. So they became blind leaders for the blind.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm not saying scholarship is bad. But you should personally seek the guidance of the holy Spirit. Then let God show you what is true. The lawyers of Jesus' day shut up the key of knowledge. (Luke 11:52) They did not understand the scriptures and yet presumed to teach people the scriptures. They had little spirituality. They just trusted in their scholarly research. So they became blind leaders for the blind.

Why? That is the error of assuming that this Holy Spirit exists in the first place. And we do not have any evidence for that at all. If anything there is evidence to the contrary. If there was a "Holy Spirit" then there should be an easily recognizable consensus of Bible interpretation. Instead we see thousands of different sects and cults all based upon different interpretations of the Bible with differences going from mild Baptist to Baptist disagreements or ALC Lutheran versus Missouri Synod Lutherans to major differences such as between Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarians. Sooner or later one says that the others are "Not true Christians".

 

[sojourner]

I'm not saying scholarship is bad. But you should personally seek the guidance of the holy Spirit. Then let God show you what is true. The lawyers of Jesus' day shut up the key of knowledge. (Luke 11:52) They did not understand the scriptures and yet presumed to teach people the scriptures. They had little spirituality. They just trusted in their scholarly research. So they became blind leaders for the blind.

It appears as though you’re forsaking scholarship for spiritual experience. They go hand-in-hand. Only when you’ve ascertained what is read out of the texts can you apply it faithfully to understanding through interpretation. Otherwise, you don’t really know what it is you’re trying to understand.

Let me put it this way: it’s by scholarship that you have a Bible to read. Otherwise, you’d be illiterate, and no one would be able to translate ancient languages into modern English. What you’re reading (unless you’re reading in the original languages) is a translation, based in scholarship. You can’t come to a knowledge of it without scholarship. The Holy Spirit will not replace scholarship. And the interpretive process is a communal process. No one interprets in a vacuum.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I just saw this video by Aron Ra where he goes over why the prophecies of the Bible fail:

He points out quite correctly that to be valid a prophesy must be clear and have a set date. Given enough time any "prophecy" that is vague enough will be fulfilled. Quite often more than once. Lowering Bible prophecies to the level of "you will see a red car" would make all prophecy worthless.

You can watch the video if you like, but it is not a prerequisite to discuss prophecy here.

EXACTLY! I've always said that I have yet to read a prophecy that either was so vague that it could mean virtually anything or was no different than an accurate prediction.