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Featured Biblical Gematria

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Bethsheba Ashe, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    293... Interesting... I want to think about that. Im a little more simple minded.

    Example:

    I'm thinking just about the 2 brothers; how they are different.

    The names as they appear on the page. Hevel is going up / connected up with the lamed.

    Kayin is going down / connected down with the final nun.

    Same pattern in how the names are pronounced.

    The lamed sound "L" is formed in the mouth with the tongue pressed upwards on the back of the teeth.

    The nun sound "N" is formed in the mouth with the tongue pressing downwards on the back of the teeth.

    Linguistically, the two names are very different, both contain energy, one is pressed up, one is pressed down. Both pressing in the same way but in directly opposing ways.

    This is reflected in the Zohar when it speaks about the two brothers and how they are different.
     
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  2. Bethsheba Ashe

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    That's a nice analysis. Thank you. Since I'm not a hebrew speaker I don't catch some of the more esoteric aspects of the letters, but I'll remember that. :)
     
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  3. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Here's something... Kayin is like a sword....

    Take a look a genesis 4:7 when G-d is speaking to Kayin.

    The contents of the verse can be interpreted like the swinging of a sword.

    Also a sword can be used for positive or for negative. This matches the contents of verse 4:7, and also reflects the thematic message behind the story.

    And it fits with the simple gematria of the word Kayin, Kuf-yud-nun.

    Edit.. The connection to the verse isn't clear using the KJV... i'll find a translation using a Jewish source and add that to this post.

    Here's a translation from sefaria.org

    הֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יב לַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֙יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖ה תִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ׃

    Surely, if you do right, There is uplift. But if you do not do right Sin couches at the door; Its urge is toward you, Yet you can be its master.

    hyperlink >>> sefaria.org - Genesis 4:7

    2nd edit... Hrmmm now i'm seeing significant variance in jewish translations too.... I'll keep researching and see if i can figure this out... Sorry...:oops:
     
    #23 dybmh, Apr 17, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2019
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  4. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    OK. Gen 4:7 is a very interesting verse. there's a lot of commentary out there about the translation.

    I was looking at the sefaria translation and reading it like a sword sweeping up or sweeping down based on the words "uplifted" "crouching by the door" "it's urge is toward you" and "you can be it's master".

    "uplifted" vs. "crouching"; that's the sweeping up or down.
    the "urge" is the edge of the sword.
    "you can be it's master": sounds like the fencing instructor.

    But the translations from Jewish sources differ significantly.

    Crouching is good enough. The word in Hebrew is consistently used in other places in the Tanakh where the context is something lower down spatially / vertically.

    The difference in opinion appears to be whether or not the word should be understood as crouching ready to pounce, or more like a sleeping dog. But either way... it's low.

    There is a lot of commentary on whether the word "urge" is understood as lust, desire, etc... but in this verse all of those varying understandings fit the theme of the verse which is that the sin wants to control Kayin if Kayin let's it. Kayin has a choice.

    The part I was struggling with is the Hebrew word shin-aleph-tav that is translated as "uplifted".

    I am seeing mostly two different translations for the word shin-aleph-tav in this verse: uplifted or forgiven.

    If it's "forgiven", that kinda shuts down the swinging sword metaphor.

    Obviously "uplifted" fits the swinging sword metaphor and fits the theme of the story, so I kinda want that one to be better. that's my bias.

    I'm trying to be objective, but I have to admit the bias exists.

    After reviewing several sources, this is my conclusion, so far, someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

    There is nothing wrong with understanding the word shin-aleph-tav in Gen 4:7 as "uplifted". The translation to "uplifted" isn't flawed and there is good support for understanding it this way

    I feel like there is just slightly more evidence in favor of "uplifted" verses "forgiven". But again, that is my bias towards Ibn Ezra and my bias towards making the metaphor fit.

    it's important to speak about bias when looking at gematria because people read into this sort of thing a lot.

    And so, it's kinda fun to look at the gematria in this case and reduce Kayin to 7, and 7 is a sword, and it all fits nicely.

    But for one to be certain that the divine intention is that Kayin is like a sword, a person would need to research every single word that reduces to 7 and see if every single one of those words resembles a sword also.

    If any of those examples I was speaking about above does not resemble a sword, then the entire analysis about Kayin is flawed. But only if one takes the gematria about Kayin that I have presented here too seriously.

    But it's a great mnemonic for the verses, and it's a fun way learn Hebrew, in my opinion.

    At this point, I'm going to continue looking at the word Kayin, and see if there are other connections to sword or connections to the theme of the story.

    Also... I'll be looking at the word shin-alpeh-tav, to see if there is more and more support for the word to be translated to uplifted, increased, or included.

    I also want to look more into the word Hevel and how those two are connected.

    Also... I read a very interesting article last night citing an old traditional gematria connection between the story of the two brothers, the temple in Jerusalem, and a practical lesson for overcoming obstacles.

    I need to re-read it again to really understand it.
     
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  5. Bethsheba Ashe

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    Sefaria is a wonderful resource but for this work I go to the biblehub interlinear bible and then check the Hebrew for any spelling variance in the other manuscripts. It shows the WLC and the Hebrew bible are a match.

    Genesis 4:7 Hebrew Text Analysis.
    הלוא אם תיטיב שאת ואם לא תיטיב לפתח חטאת רבץ ואליך תשוקתו ואתה תמשל בו

    My Shematria app shows an extra vav prefixed to the second word (am). I'd go with Biblehub over Shematria in this because I didn't have much choice when it came to selecting an interlinear Json and I can't give you its full providence or bone-fides.

    In the blessing that Esau receives from Isaac, a sword is mentioned. Genesis 27:40:
    ועל חרבך תחיה ואת אחיך תעבד והיה כאשר תריד ופרקת עלו מעל צוארך
    And by your sword you shall live and your brother you shall serve and then when you become restless and break his yoke from your neck.
    חרבך = 230
    What I think is fascinating about this line is the metaphor of a bull for Esau and the yoke reference reminds me that the aleph comes from the pictogram of a Ox yoke. Esau 79 + 1 (the yoke) = 80.
    230 sword + 80 Esau and the aleph = 310 = אל x 10. The Mesopotamian Summer and Winter were personified as bulls too.

    But back to Cain...
    הלוא אם תיטיב שאת ואם לא תיטיב לפתח חטאת רבץ ואליך תשוקתו ואתה תמשל בו
    As you've noted his name = 160, which is twice that of Esau's above.
    This peshat meaning of the verse is very decisive, so I can see why it is likened to a sword coming down. The word חֶ֙רֶב֙ ends with a Beth (2), and a sword has two edges. In hermetic Qabbalah the two sides of the sword can unite as well as divide. All opposites are united above the abyss and divided below the abyss, and I guess the symbolism of that comes from Genesis 3:24 where a flaming sword is set to guard the way to the Tree of Life. In Gen 4-7 Cain is described as being "at the door", presumably the door to the heavens at the Palace of the Daleth (right side), which would (according to traditions across the ANE) be guarded.

    To rule over sin = 99 : תִּמְשָׁל חַטָּ֣את
    תִּמְשָׁל = 77

    I'm going to play with these verses a little more. I want to check out the falling of Cain's countenance as that's mentioned a lot. :)
     
    #25 Bethsheba Ashe, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
  6. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Interesting, I will check it out.

    I did go to Bible-hub... btw ... it is a wonderful resource. I simply wasn't looking at the word aleph-mem ( if ).

    But thank you for pointing it out. Very interesting...
    That is so cool you noticed that... I noticed that too a while back. it's possible I read it somewhere, and I'm not remembering the reference.

    anyhoo... when i noticed it, it was not in the verse you mentioned,,, and I think it's great.
     
    #26 dybmh, Apr 18, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  7. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No, I don't think this gematria originates with Paleo-Hebrew script. The Paleo-Hebrew, Phoenecian, Hebrew - and even to a very large extent the Greek alphabets - all follow the same order of letters. And that order does not have the ש and ת in the positions you've placed them.

    Now we're getting to the heart of things. The reason you've arranged them in that order is in order to arrive at a pre-determined outcome. Well. That's not a very good reason.
     
  8. Rival

    Rival RF NKVD
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    I wonder how this will work with psalm 119? :neutral:
     
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  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Psalms 111, 112, 119, 145 and Prov. 31:10-31 aren't Biblical.
     
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Apologies. I don't know what that means. "Not Biblical." What does that mean?
     
  11. Bethsheba Ashe

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    No, the reason they're arranged that way is that this is the order that they operate in the alphabetic acrostic of Genesis, chapters 1 & 2, and if you ask why they are arranged that way in the alphabetic acrostic then counting the sum of the order is a logic avenue of investigation.

    I note that it was Judith Dillon who discovered that the order sums to 217.
     
  12. Rival

    Rival RF NKVD
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    It's not really Pesach either.

    Our whole existence is a lie.

    Hell, even this thread doesn't exist.
     
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  13. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @Tumah, in light of Rival's observation, nevermind...

    Bye.

    I am joking, hopefully you know that.
     
  14. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Here's a little Passover joke:

    What does freedom taste like?

    Not much, but It's crunchy.
     
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  15. Bethsheba Ashe

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    Indeed. Or 145? One of Psalm 145's peculiarities is that there is no verse beginning with the letter nun (נ). The sequence skips from Mem to Samekh. The gematria of the verses for 145 appear to resolve into the letter values. There are about 8 acrostics in Psalms in books 4 and 5.
     
  16. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I note that there is not acrostic in Genesis chapters 1 or 2. You may arrange one however you like. But that again is you arranging it to suit a pre-determined outcome.
     
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  17. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Why is the nun missing in 145.... researching now...
     
  18. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Psalm 145... I know this one... --blush--
     
  19. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    145 is all praise no requests... what is the nun? What does it represent? Why would it be left out?
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    In the zohar, the nun stands for deception.

    That may be why it is not included in psalm 145.
     
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