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Bible versions

sooda

Veteran Member
The prejudice against Ishmael is related to the Zionist ambition to acquire control of the land inherited by his descendants:

In reference to the area of the Jewish state: From the Brook of Egypt to the Euphrates.
As quoted in Complete Diaries by Theodor Herzl, Volume II, page 711.

In the same day YHWH made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Genesis 15:18

The brook of Egypt is Wadi El Arish.. and to me it makes no sense that they were given land all the way to the Euphrates. That's ancient Mesopotamia.

The Euphrates flows through Syria and Iraq to join the Tigris in the Shatt al-Arab, which empties into the Persian Gulf.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Ignorant Jews who didn't speak or read Hebrew and who had Hellenized read the Septuagint. It was never accepted by the Jewish establishment. In Judaism, the Hebrew text IS the word of God. All translations are simply less than.

You are mistaken if you think that Christian Bibles don't use the Septuagint as part of the foundation for their translations. Indeed one of the leading theories is that with the exception of the Torah, the Septuagint WAS a Christian translation, with the changes being for the purposes of underscoring Christian doctrine.

There are many instances of deliberate misquotation of the Tanakh in he Christian Scriptures, and thats not including th times that verses are yanked out of context. Here is one example of a misquotation:

"'not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,' declares the Lord," (Jeremiah 31:32).

"Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord," (Hebrews 8:9).

By the birth of Christ 5 million Jews were living in diaspora.. They couldn't all have been ignorant.
 

Prim969

Member
Ignorant Jews who didn't speak or read Hebrew and who had Hellenized read the Septuagint. It was never accepted by the Jewish establishment. In Judaism, the Hebrew text IS the word of God. All translations are simply less than.

You are mistaken if you think that Christian Bibles don't use the Septuagint as part of the foundation for their translations. Indeed one of the leading theories is that with the exception of the Torah, the Septuagint WAS a Christian translation, with the changes being for the purposes of underscoring Christian doctrine.

There are many instances of deliberate misquotation of the Tanakh in he Christian Scriptures, and thats not including th times that verses are yanked out of context. Here is one example of a misquotation:

"'not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,' declares the Lord," (Jeremiah 31:32).

"Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers On the day when I took them by the hand To lead them out of the land of Egypt; For they did not continue in My covenant, And I did not care for them, says the Lord," (Hebrews 8:9).
Indigochild that’s right on varying occasions Christ and the writers of the New Testament did quote from the Septuagint along with other Greek readings which brings us to the book of Hebrews which most attribute to the Apostle Paul. I do find quite funny that you call those Jews most ignorant who couldn’t read or speak Hebrew and had gone on to learn the Grecian ways : ) . But nether the less the Apostle Paul did know both languages well being very much esteemed amongst the Jewish establishment. A Jew of Jews a true defender of the Jewish faith and well known for his persecution of the Christians prior to his conversation. Indigochild Jeremiah 31: 32 reads much the same in my bible ( Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord ) but as you have stated with Hebrews 8:9 the words do read differently ( and I regarded them not , saith the Lord ) The writer is quoting from the Septuagint and not the Masoretic or the Tanakh. Could it really be a conspiracy of the church considering that the Septuagint had been around for hundreds of years prior to any influence from the church. Actually God was always a faithful husband to Israel but at times Israel loved to play the harlot and was often most unfaithful to him, which finally did end in her judgment and of the Lord rejecting her fully. So is ( I regarded them not ) really a false accusation to what we know came to pass with Israel. Certainly not. And the Holy Spirit did allow this to be incorporated into scripture both ways and I’m sure that if the writer was the Apostle Paul knowing both Greek and Hebrew that he would have corrected if it was such a heretical inconsistency. And yes the Septuagint is still used fully by some today: The Orthodox Church does use it very much. Anyway I shall keep that in mind as you are right. All throughout history there are some who do deliberately tamper with and corrupt the word of God as with the old so also with the new. Indigochild I shall put a search in for the Stone Tanakh you have recommended.
 
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sooda

Veteran Member
The brook of Egypt is Wadi El Arish.. and to me it makes no sense that they were given land all the way to the Euphrates. That's ancient Mesopotamia.

The Euphrates flows through Syria and Iraq to join the Tigris in the Shatt al-Arab, which empties into the Persian Gulf.


greater-israel-map6.jpg
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
A Jew of Jews a true defender of the Jewish faith
A liar and a Pharisee.

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Acts 23

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.

Could it really be a conspiracy of the church considering that the Septuagint had been around for hundreds of years prior to any influence from the church.

Religious prejudice was nothing new before the advent of Christianity, vowel pointing was a vehicle for this.

Genesis 16:12

wild_ass_1.gif

"And he shall be a wild *** of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him..."

wild_ass_2.gif


"... he will be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with everyone, and every man's hand shall be with him..."

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 17:20

Link
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
The brook of Egypt is Wadi El Arish..
The phrase "brook of Egypt" was used by Theodor Herzl to describe the border of his aspirational Jewish state. The only translations I could find which use this phrase are the Christian Standard Bible and the Holman Christian Standard Bible.

Also, Herzl's territory extends to the land of the covenant of Genesis 15, not just the land of Canaan which related to the descendants of Jacob in Genesis 17.This is consistent with the prejudice against Ishmael conveyed by the vowel pointing of Genesis 16:12.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The phrase "brook of Egypt" was used by Theodor Herzl to describe the border of his aspirational Jewish state. The only translations I could find which use this phrase are the Christian Standard Bible and the Holman Christian Standard Bible.

Also, Herzl's territory extends to the land of the covenant of Genesis 15, not just the land of Canaan which related to the descendants of Jacob in Genesis 17.This is consistent with the prejudice against Ishmael conveyed by the vowel pointing of Genesis 16:12.

Do you think Abraham was given a piece of Syria and a piece of Iraq?

This verse seem cut off to me..

18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: 19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, 20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, 21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga****es, and the Jebusites.
 

Prim969

Member
A liar and a Pharisee.

Acts 21
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Acts 23

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men [and] brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.



Religious prejudice was nothing new before the advent of Christianity, vowel pointing was a vehicle for this.

Genesis 16:12

wild_ass_1.gif

"And he shall be a wild *** of a man; his hand shall be against every man, and every man's hand against him..."

wild_ass_2.gif


"... he will be a fruitful man: his hand shall be with everyone, and every man's hand shall be with him..."

And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 17:20

Link
Theo Acts 21 does begin with Paul’s evangelical sojourn into Caesarea and than on to Jerusalem. He fully knew what awaited him there from the prior warnings given by other believers as mentioned in v 13 ( Than Paul answered. What mean Ye to weep and break my heart? For I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. I’m not too sure what you are trying to point out with Acts21: 23-24 and Acts21: 27-28. You have the accusations of others accusing him of breaking the law nothing more nothing less. And the only other thing I can think of. Is what was the apostle Paul now a Christian doing at the Temple at all. Theo Scripture does tell us that the gospel is firstly preached to the Jew and than to every nation and tongue apon earth to whom to ever will . And that is exactly what Paul was doing preaching the gospel to his own kindred. You must also remember that the church was still in a transitional period. So yes the ritual purification and temple procedure was still observed with its final judgment ending in 70AD. As to Acts 23 : 6-7 Now we have jumped a couple of chapters from Paul’s arrest to find ourselves at Paul’s defence. Paul does perceive amongst the counsel that there are Sadducee’s present as well. Paul merely presents his credibility and ancestry of being a Pharisee according to Jewish law . V6 I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and the resurrection of the dead. I am called.into question ). Is Paul a liar for confirming so. Certainly not. As always he does continue to preach to his kindred that Jesus Christ is the Messiah and it is to him they should seek. As mentioned by the Lord himself in Acts 23: 11 ( And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou has testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear wittiness of me in Rome ) So now back the question of Paul being a liar and a Pharisee. I guess we have all have lied at times and acted like a self righteous Pharisee. I will let the Apostle Paul. have the final say, for he does say so much more. 1st Timothy 1:15 ( This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners: of whom I am Chief) Theo the web article on Genesis 16:12 that you gave is most interesting especially about the vows being added later which leaves much open to interpretation of what was really actually said without the vows. A wild man or a fruitful man. The writer has certainly done his research that Ishmael is a fruitful one and not a wild one. : ) He seems very honest in his evaluation. So much to think about there. Thank you for the web page article I do look forward to reading the many other articles there as well.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You think that laughing is "naughty things" ?

Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed[צחקת] not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh[צחקת].
Genesis 18:15
Ahaha. Laughing. Right. Abimelech spied on Isaac doing stand-up comedy for his wife. Cute.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
I’m not too sure what you are trying to point out with Acts21: 23-24 and Acts21: 27-28. You have the accusations of others accusing him of breaking the law nothing more nothing less.
No, they accused him of teaching against the law. Paul misrepresents this as being about the resurrection of the dead.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Indigochild that’s right on varying occasions Christ and the writers of the New Testament did quote from the Septuagint along with other Greek readings which brings us to the book of Hebrews which most attribute to the Apostle Paul. I do find quite funny that you call those Jews most ignorant who couldn’t read or speak Hebrew and had gone on to learn the Grecian ways : ) . But nether the less the Apostle Paul did know both languages well being very much esteemed amongst the Jewish establishment. A Jew of Jews a true defender of the Jewish faith and well known for his persecution of the Christians prior to his conversation. Indigochild Jeremiah 31: 32 reads much the same in my bible ( Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt: which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith the Lord ) but as you have stated with Hebrews 8:9 the words do read differently ( and I regarded them not , saith the Lord ) The writer is quoting from the Septuagint and not the Masoretic or the Tanakh. Could it really be a conspiracy of the church considering that the Septuagint had been around for hundreds of years prior to any influence from the church. Actually God was always a faithful husband to Israel but at times Israel loved to play the harlot and was often most unfaithful to him, which finally did end in her judgment and of the Lord rejecting her fully. So is ( I regarded them not ) really a false accusation to what we know came to pass with Israel. Certainly not. And the Holy Spirit did allow this to be incorporated into scripture both ways and I’m sure that if the writer was the Apostle Paul knowing both Greek and Hebrew that he would have corrected if it was such a heretical inconsistency. And yes the Septuagint is still used fully by some today: The Orthodox Church does use it very much. Anyway I shall keep that in mind as you are right. All throughout history there are some who do deliberately tamper with and corrupt the word of God as with the old so also with the new. Indigochild I shall put a search in for the Stone Tanakh you have recommended.

I'm so pleased that you are considering looking into the Stone Edition Tanakh. You can always order it online at Artscroll.com and many other places online.

I would argue that Paul was a hellenized Jew. He was born outside of Judea, aka Saul of Tarsus.

The Tanakh is simply the Hebrew manuscripts of the canon of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. The Masoretic manuscript is one example of a Tanakh manuscript copied and edited during the 7th to 10th centuries CE.

As I said in my previous post, the theory is that with the exception of the Torah (the first five books) the Septuagint was NOT translated "hundreds of years prior to christian influence" but was indeed translated by Christians, directly influenced by their theology, in some cases mistranslated for reasons of theology.

Israel always went back and forth, having good kings and bad kings, times of obedience and times of unfaithfulness, you will get no argument from me. However, the prophets were very clear that while unfaithfulness would bring discipline, God would restore Israel, things would be better than ever, the wolf would lie down with the lamb, etc. There has never , ever been a time where God has rejected Israel. Ever.

I know you are sincere in your beliefs, but you have to understand that to me, it is just so ridiculous to read in the Tanakh that God has made an everlasting covenant with Israel, and then to turn around and say that God has abrogated that covenant. You just can't have it both ways without God being some kind of liar. I think both you and I agree that God is not a liar. :)
 
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