Like castng the first stone?Bennettresearch said:
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Bible Prophecys coming true
- Thread starter Ryan2065
- Start date
JerryL
Well-Known Member
That's what's claimed by the author of the gospel; but since the credibility of the gospel is what's at stake, that's circular. If I just want to presuppose the gospel true, then I wouldn't be asking for extra-biblical support.
"Jerry is God". You have no proof that that statement isn't true. I hope you don't assume it is merely the creation of whomever wrote it.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
I assume you mean Ezekiel 26
"I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock."
Here's a picture of the "bare rock"
Of course, Tyre was regularly invaded long before this was written, and the prophecy is pretty fague about who, when, or how... so it's a lot like predicting "there will be fighting in the middle east", only more poetic-sounding.
Let's go for it. Offer up your best predictions.
When you are in hell for failing to sacrifice gummy-bears to the phase-shifted unicorns, you will wish you changed your ways!!!
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hmm, gummy-bears, eh? I am not going to sit all day and type out all the prophecies of the Bible! That is for you to research. Tyre was very interesting, in that for years people did not understand the prophecy, because as you said they had been invaded before. But the Bible was specific in many points about that prophecy. Ezekiel declared when Tyre was at its height: "And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken it saith the Lord God... And they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water... And I will make thee like the top of a rock...thou shalt be built no more: for I the Lord have spoken it" (Ezekiel 26:4-5, 12-14)
A few years after the writing of this prophecy, the great Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon seiged the city for 13 years and took it, but many fled by boat to form the new city of Tyre on an island a half mile out in the Mediterranean. The prophecy was fulfilled, therefore, only in part. There was much rubble, it was not scraped clean, stones and timbers weren't cast into the sea. It seemed to people like you, that the prophecy was in error.
But then many years later, came Alexander! To defeat the island city, he ordered, "Tear down the walls of Tyre, take the timbers and the stones, the rubble and the logs, and cast them into the sea." So they made a causeway into the sea and defeated Tyre, its all in your history books. Alexander himself carried stones on his back. I have seen pictures of Tyre. Guess what I saw? nets spread out on flat scraped rocks.
The prophecy was accurately carried out in real live history.
I can list hundreds of prophecies in just the same way, but I will let you search that out for yourself.
A few years after the writing of this prophecy, the great Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon seiged the city for 13 years and took it, but many fled by boat to form the new city of Tyre on an island a half mile out in the Mediterranean. The prophecy was fulfilled, therefore, only in part. There was much rubble, it was not scraped clean, stones and timbers weren't cast into the sea. It seemed to people like you, that the prophecy was in error.
But then many years later, came Alexander! To defeat the island city, he ordered, "Tear down the walls of Tyre, take the timbers and the stones, the rubble and the logs, and cast them into the sea." So they made a causeway into the sea and defeated Tyre, its all in your history books. Alexander himself carried stones on his back. I have seen pictures of Tyre. Guess what I saw? nets spread out on flat scraped rocks.
The prophecy was accurately carried out in real live history.
I can list hundreds of prophecies in just the same way, but I will let you search that out for yourself.
Not it wasn't
we could go back and forth...When do most accounts have Paul dieng?
JerryL
Well-Known Member
I'm asking for ONE
Perhaps I can't see them because of all the buildings in the way:
http://tyros.leb.net//img/tyr002.jpg
Of course, many of those are modern. Perhaps you want ancient buildings, admittedly ruined at this point, but not scraped to bare stone:
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre1.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre10.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre6.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre8.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre9.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre5.jpg
http://www.middleeast.com/tyre4.jpg
So let's review:
Tyre was invaded many times.
The Bible, in the middle of these invasions, declares that Tyre will be invaded.
it is.
The Bible also claims that it will be scraped to bare rock... that hasn't happened.
So you claim. I'm still waiting for one. One prophecy (which does not amount to "there will be wars, people will be sad, puppies will wag their tails, or someone will do something"), which can be verified to have been made before the event, and for which the event can be verified to have occured.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
Dunno.
According to the Catholic church (http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Homiletic/May97/gospels.html)
The current dating of the four Gospels, accepted by the biblical establishment, which includes scholars of every persuasion, is: Mark 65-70; Matthew and Luke in the 80s; John in the 90s.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I guess you are reading different history books than I am!!! The prophecy came true to the details!!!
Can you deny that Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy? In your ignorance you probably will try. Do you deny the prophecy of Daniel chapter 2 of the nations that were to rule the world? It was very precise. The head of gold was the Babylonian empire, the silver breast was the Medo-Persian empire, the belly of bronze was the Greek empire, the legs of iron was the Roman empire, and the feet of iron and clay is the last one that has not taken place yet. Napoleon and Hitler have tried, but failed, but the last world government is coming. These world empires came about just as Daniel predicted, say what you want, but the prophecies are real and true! Every prophecy of the Bible has or will come about exactly as it says, because God and only God, knows the future!
Can you deny that Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 is not a fulfillment of Bible prophecy? In your ignorance you probably will try. Do you deny the prophecy of Daniel chapter 2 of the nations that were to rule the world? It was very precise. The head of gold was the Babylonian empire, the silver breast was the Medo-Persian empire, the belly of bronze was the Greek empire, the legs of iron was the Roman empire, and the feet of iron and clay is the last one that has not taken place yet. Napoleon and Hitler have tried, but failed, but the last world government is coming. These world empires came about just as Daniel predicted, say what you want, but the prophecies are real and true! Every prophecy of the Bible has or will come about exactly as it says, because God and only God, knows the future!
JerryL
Well-Known Member
History books? I posted pictures of Tyre, and its ruins. I cannot imagine a more cut-n-dry method of establishing that Tyre is still there and that some of old Tyre survived to modern days.
Self fulfilling.
You prove my point for me. You cannot say who the next one is because you are filling a prophecy to fit history rather than reading the prophecy directly.
BTW, the Persians did not rule the World (They were minor presences in Asia Major, Africa, and Europe; and entirely unknown in the Americas and Australia). Nor did the greeks (same), nor the Romans (they were a major presence in Europe and North Africa; but the rest remains).
So your prophecy of nations ruling the world? None ever have.
You've shared one prophecy that was vague "the south will rise again" and filled by deliberate act; and two that are actually completely inconsistant with history (Tyre will be razed to bare rock, and several countries will rule the world in succession). Next?
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I have shown you some prophecies and you choose to ignore or downplay them. Tyre has never come back to its former greatness. How can Israel becoming a nation in one day be a self fulfilling prophecy? No tribe or nation from ancient times has ever come back and in the exact ways foretold by the Bible. And, yes, those were REAL world empires that ruled the known, civilized world of their time. I can see you choose not to actually try to consider any prophecy, even when the facts are right in front of you, so I am done. Good luck.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
That's one option. However none of these are specifc and unusual and actually happened.
No, it didn't. Of course, there is eventually always a point from which a given city or state doesn't come back. You've picked that point as the one foretold, ignoring others because they weren't.
That prophecy was not fulfilled. Tyre was not coured to bare rock. Tyre is the second or third most populus city in Lebanon and is in existiance today.
Egypt and Greece both reformed as nationas after the fall or Rome. So, I believe did Syria and Lebanon.
Really? Which one ruled Japan or China? Which oversaw the pyramids of the Inca or Mayans? Heck, which ruled Nubia? Which conquered the Mogols? Which ran India?
None. None ruled the world. None ruled the civilized world. All were regional empires. Large and impressive, but regional.
I think you are rationalizeing. I think that I have considered them and you have not. I think, subconsiously you know that you are wrong, and it's becoming evident that nothing shy of a real prophecy will convince me, and *that* is why you are "done".
If nothing else, the fact that you moved through three different prophecies proves it. If you had one true and verifiable prophecy, you'd stick that one out. But you don't, so you change prophecy. That way you can put out all your assertions and run without having to defend them.
Bennettresearch
Politically Incorrect
Hi Jerry,
You are adamant in your denial of any prophecy whatsoever it appears. I have studied the prophets and I think the most common mistake is that they are considered right about everything. There were some misses and some didn't come true according to a script. However, what is fascinating in this study is where there were hits and events that were almost fulfilled it to the letter.
You have a good point in the self-fulfilment argument in that the return of the Jews. was in the reign of Cyrus. To ignore that and project it into the 20th century is a mistake. As to your position of postdictions in the Gospels, you equally cannot prove that it is not true. Therefore, to claim that it is solely the overreaching of the writer of the Gospel is actually very closed minded. You went off on my saying I have no proof it wasn't true. I can prove quite easily that your aren't God, wouldn't even take a minute.
You are adamant in your denial of any prophecy whatsoever it appears. I have studied the prophets and I think the most common mistake is that they are considered right about everything. There were some misses and some didn't come true according to a script. However, what is fascinating in this study is where there were hits and events that were almost fulfilled it to the letter.
You have a good point in the self-fulfilment argument in that the return of the Jews. was in the reign of Cyrus. To ignore that and project it into the 20th century is a mistake. As to your position of postdictions in the Gospels, you equally cannot prove that it is not true. Therefore, to claim that it is solely the overreaching of the writer of the Gospel is actually very closed minded. You went off on my saying I have no proof it wasn't true. I can prove quite easily that your aren't God, wouldn't even take a minute.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
Hey
Your rationalization of gernerality into specificity, combined with your disregard of prophetic error to confom portions of a prophecy to meed the facts of some event somewhere is a common mistake; and for the record, I don't deny any prophecy, just every one that's been presented. Feel free to offer up a legetimate prophecy, which can be verified to have occured before the event, and for which the event can be established happening (such as a Biblical passage saying "in 2005, a major hurricane will flood New Orleans"), and you are all set.
To pick only parts of a prophecy is "cherry picking", and to conform it to events is rationalization.
As to your claim, I invite you to try to prove I'm not God (without relying upon non-shared framework presuppositions like "Jehovia is the only God, you are not Jehovia, therefore you are not God", as these are countered with "Jerry is the only God, Jehovia is not Jerry, therefore Jehovia is not God"). The short version is "it can't be done".
Honestly, Nostradamus has a better claim to fame. At least once of his was specifically interpreted and (taht I can tell) not directed to fruition: specifically, "The Man who Saw Tomorrow" from around 1987 interpreted his predicions to indicate that a war would be started with the US (they listed the date between 1997 and 1999) by a man in the Middle East with a blue turban who would start by bringing "fire in the sky" at New York (they interpreted this as a missle attack).
In point of fact, Al Quida has indeed been in a war with the US since the 90s (really starting in the 80s with the attack on the marine barracks in Beruit), and did indeed attack New York from the air. (no idea where this blue turban comes in).
This interpretation (comeplete with timing) is a far less likely event then Tyre getting conqured *again* at some point. Unfortunately, a great deal around it is wrong.
Your rationalization of gernerality into specificity, combined with your disregard of prophetic error to confom portions of a prophecy to meed the facts of some event somewhere is a common mistake; and for the record, I don't deny any prophecy, just every one that's been presented. Feel free to offer up a legetimate prophecy, which can be verified to have occured before the event, and for which the event can be established happening (such as a Biblical passage saying "in 2005, a major hurricane will flood New Orleans"), and you are all set.
To pick only parts of a prophecy is "cherry picking", and to conform it to events is rationalization.
As to your claim, I invite you to try to prove I'm not God (without relying upon non-shared framework presuppositions like "Jehovia is the only God, you are not Jehovia, therefore you are not God", as these are countered with "Jerry is the only God, Jehovia is not Jerry, therefore Jehovia is not God"). The short version is "it can't be done".
Honestly, Nostradamus has a better claim to fame. At least once of his was specifically interpreted and (taht I can tell) not directed to fruition: specifically, "The Man who Saw Tomorrow" from around 1987 interpreted his predicions to indicate that a war would be started with the US (they listed the date between 1997 and 1999) by a man in the Middle East with a blue turban who would start by bringing "fire in the sky" at New York (they interpreted this as a missle attack).
In point of fact, Al Quida has indeed been in a war with the US since the 90s (really starting in the 80s with the attack on the marine barracks in Beruit), and did indeed attack New York from the air. (no idea where this blue turban comes in).
This interpretation (comeplete with timing) is a far less likely event then Tyre getting conqured *again* at some point. Unfortunately, a great deal around it is wrong.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
Hi. The Tyre prophecies came true, so did Israel becoming a nation again, so too, were the world empires. Look at them how you want. You say next? Ok, here is one, Deuteronomy 28:64 says that Israel would be scattered among all the people from one end of the earth to the other. Do you deny that happenned in real history? Do your best with that, and there are many many more...
Bennettresearch
Politically Incorrect
Hi Joe,
On the subject of the word "world", there was a different perspective in that time and it often referred to the known civilization at the time. It therefore would not include China, America, etc. The conquest of the world seems to bethe main preoccupation of any civilization that grew powerful. One can then argue that Rome ruled the world for a while and that Romanism and Hellenism are still forces at play even in modern times.
This makes the prediction of someone coming to rule the entire world almost a safe bet because it seemed that every civilization aspired to it. This makes Jerryl's assertion that non of it is true to be a denial of world history. So, even if there are still ruins at Tyre, I don't see the lights on at night.
I am objective on the subject but I think to be arbitrarily in a state of denial, ergo; "saying that non of it is true", is misguided. Playing the devil's advocate and doubting everything is very tiresome.
On the subject of the word "world", there was a different perspective in that time and it often referred to the known civilization at the time. It therefore would not include China, America, etc. The conquest of the world seems to bethe main preoccupation of any civilization that grew powerful. One can then argue that Rome ruled the world for a while and that Romanism and Hellenism are still forces at play even in modern times.
This makes the prediction of someone coming to rule the entire world almost a safe bet because it seemed that every civilization aspired to it. This makes Jerryl's assertion that non of it is true to be a denial of world history. So, even if there are still ruins at Tyre, I don't see the lights on at night.
I am objective on the subject but I think to be arbitrarily in a state of denial, ergo; "saying that non of it is true", is misguided. Playing the devil's advocate and doubting everything is very tiresome.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
No. The Type prophecy did not come true. Tyre was never completely destroied and IS STILL THERE TODAY.
I'm not sure how much more clear it's non-destruction can be than it's continued presence; complete with construction from the time of the prophecy.
OK. Let's look at it. Actually let's start with Deut 58:
If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, which are written in this book, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name
So in Deut 58, we see that this is nat a prophecy but a threat. But let's assume for argument's sake that the Jews did not follow the law and so this now becomes a prediction.
Then the LORD will scatter you among all nations, from one end of the earth to the other. There you will worship other godsgods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. Among those nations you will find no repose, no resting place for the sole of your foot. There the LORD will give you an anxious mind, eyes weary with longing, and a despairing heart. You will live in constant suspense, filled with dread both night and day, never sure of your life. In the morning you will say, "If only it were evening!" and in the evening, "If only it were morning!"-because of the terror that will fill your hearts and the sights that your eyes will see. The LORD will send you back in ships to Egypt on a journey I said you should never make again. There you will offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.
They will be scattered among all nations: I think this is an overstatement, but I'll go along with it
They will worship other Gods: That was already happening before they were scattered.
Among the nations you will find no repose: That's not true. The Jews are well established and secure in the US for example.
They will go back to Egypt: Did this happen? I must have missed it.
There they will offer yourself for sale: Again, when did this happen?
So Deut isn't even a prophecy; but if I treat it as one, I find that it's not particularly true. The only claims which came true are general enough that they can be said of every group in the world: try to name a group which is not present "in all nations" and which has not had members change religions. There really aren't any (shy of the possability of some small and remote group in near-total isolation).
Bennettresearch
Politically Incorrect
JerryL,
you are doing just what you seem to be objecting to. You are putting words in my mouth and projecting your own mind into my statements. "I do not generalize as specific." The prophesy i quoted is very specific and you have kicked at it but have not been able to disprove it definitively, only to view it in a predetermined manner of denial.
You are all too ready to launch and haven't checked your fuel gauge.
you are doing just what you seem to be objecting to. You are putting words in my mouth and projecting your own mind into my statements. "I do not generalize as specific." The prophesy i quoted is very specific and you have kicked at it but have not been able to disprove it definitively, only to view it in a predetermined manner of denial.
You are all too ready to launch and haven't checked your fuel gauge.
JerryL
Well-Known Member
Nubia was known. Which one conquered Nubia?
Every one of those nations could tell you of places it was aware of but did not conqure (how did Alexander fare in India? How about Rome with the Barbars or Northern England?
You are having to redefine the word "world", and then stretch it back out. I'm surprised you are not listing the Mongols, the Ottomans, and the Brits... or does the prophecy translate as "some big countries will rule us and a bunch around us"?
JerryL
Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to disprove anything except your support.
You did redefine (make specific claims of general claims), for example, when you redefined "world".
Your wheel is spinning but the hamster's dead. The lights are on but nobodys home. Your mother wears army-boots. Stick whatever playground insult you like; you've still made no case for any prophecy meeting the criteria of unlikely (whether because of claim or because of specificity) and true.