Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

[Hockeycowboy]

From what I’ve been taught of the Scriptures, these ones will learn the truth at their resurrection, when all misleading influences will be removed. Then they will be given the opportunity to make informed choices based on reality, ie., what the truth is.
Everyone will.

 

[Bree]

That's 200 years AFTER the first draft and almost 500 years after the conquest of Cyrus. Please, learn some basic math!

Sorry, but if you read a diary which has no specific dates, but describes events that the writer witnessed such as "today I went to watch the nasa astronauts get launched into space and the news reported a safe landing on the moon for the first time in history" you would know that the writer was someone who lived in the 60's

Isaiah specifically states he began to be a prophet to the nation during the reign of King Uzziah. That tells us that he was alive during that time period and in turn his writing, which always been attributed to him by the custodians of the text, was written during his lifetime, not afterward.

 

[Bree]

Interesting.

Can you give me an explanation of how you date these writings?

E.g.

1. When did the destruction of Babylon take place?
2. When was the "Prophecy" written down and how do you date it?

Thanks.

For Isaiah, Isaiah 1:1 says that Isaiah visioned these things 'in the days of' Uzziah(791–739 bc), Jotham(742–735 BCE), Ahaz (735–715 BCE) , and Hezekiah (716/15–687/86), kings of Judah
These Judean kings are well attested to in secular writings and they are chronogically recorded in the jewish histories. So they are real people and the time of their rulership is known. This tell us when Isaiah lived and when he prophesied. He wrote the prophecy down prior to his death no doubt. Many other bible writers also quote from Isaiah's prophecy, most notably Jesus Christ references the words found at Isaiah 42:1-4
Luke 4 :17So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,+ 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.”+ 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard* is fulfilled.”+

this proves that the Scroll of Isaiah was well in use in the 1st century of our common era.


Babylons destruction at the hands of the Medes and Persians (working together) as foretold by Isaiah and jeremiah was during the reign of Belshazzar the son and crown prince of Nabonidus (r. 556–539 BC) which is 200 years after Isaiah lived.

 

[Bree]

From what I’ve been taught of the Scriptures, these ones will learn the truth at their resurrection, when all misleading influences will be removed. Then they will be given the opportunity to make informed choices based on reality, ie., what the truth is.
Everyone will.

i cant' wait for that time....imagine a world were lies and propaganda are gone. Only truth will be known. Wonderful times ahead.

 

[firedragon]

For Isaiah, Isaiah 1:1 says that Isaiah visioned these things 'in the days of' Uzziah(791–739 bc), Jotham(742–735 BCE), Ahaz (735–715 BCE) , and Hezekiah (716/15–687/86), kings of Judah
These Judean kings are well attested to in secular writings and they are chronogically recorded in the jewish histories. So they are real people and the time of their rulership is known. This tell us when Isaiah lived and when he prophesied. He wrote the prophecy down prior to his death no doubt. Many other bible writers also quote from Isaiah's prophecy, most notably Jesus Christ references the words found at Isaiah 42:1-4
Luke 4 :17So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him, and he opened the scroll and found the place where it was written: 18 “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor. He sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away free,+ 19 to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.”+ 20 With that he rolled up the scroll, handed it back to the attendant, and sat down; and the eyes of all in the synagogue were intently fixed on him. 21 Then he began to say to them: “Today this scripture that you just heard* is fulfilled.”+

this proves that the Scroll of Isaiah was well in use in the 1st century of our common era.


Babylons destruction at the hands of the Medes and Persians (working together) as foretold by Isaiah and jeremiah was during the reign of Belshazzar the son and crown prince of Nabonidus (r. 556–539 BC) which is 200 years after Isaiah lived.

Not really. Texts can not be dated by the text itself. That is a fallacy.

How do you date it?

 

[Bree]

Not really. Texts can not be dated by the text itself. That is a fallacy.

How do you date it?

How do you date Mohammads existence?

 

[firedragon]

How do you date Mohammads existence?

Is that a question because you cannot date your own conception? So, when you cant date anything you are proposing you will ask the other person? Is not that a Tu Quoque? If you cannot date your texts and their so called prophecies, just say that you cannot date them. Hope you understand.

Anyway just to give you an answer as a respect, the Qur'an is dated with carbon 14 dating to the early 7th century. Its just scientific dating.

Please try not to do Tu Quoque and provide some kind of dating to your text. If you cannot, just say you cannot.

Peace.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Or more accurately, the total absence of credible evidence to support either the idea of fortune-telling or the idea of the supernatural as aspects of reality rather than of human psychology.
Reasoned skeptical enquiry will go where the evidence goes rather than where faith or folktale go. Sometimes for example archeological and historical enquiry find evidence supporting this or that bible story, and sometimes they find evidence contradicting this or that bible story.
It appears to be the case that the only manner in which God and gods and supernatural beings exist is as concepts / things imagined in individual brains. For example God never appears, never says, never does, and exists in hundreds of thousands of incompatible versions across history and geography.
So you accept the prophecies of, for example, the Delphic sybil? Of Nordic religion? Or the psychics industry in the US and other Western countries?

After all, if it's possible for humans to know aspects of the future that can't be reasoned from existing evidence and trends, why would this talent be limited to one particular and ancient group?
As far as I'm aware, no believer has left an account of how prophecy actually works, just as there's no description in the bible or (as far as I can find) in theology of what is supposed to have actually happened when God says "Let there be light!" in Genesis. What processes were initiated by those words, such that the EM spectrum was brought into existence? How did the physics of "the heavens and the earth" work without the EM spectrum before this happened?

Or do you agree that this too is just folktale?


Oh, and what about these prophecies?

Mark 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

Mark 13:28 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away before all these things take place.

Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Matthew 24:32 “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”​

The reason that the prophecies of the Bible are reliable, and not 'hit or miss', is because God calls a people, lsrael, and uses individuals from within that house to reveal his will. God has not chosen any other people to be his people, and the written record of his will and intention is bound up with the history of lsrael. Even the NT, written by Jews and their proselytes, is a record made within the family of lsrael. The Church, the body of Christ, is itself part of true Israel (Christ), and now awaits the final ingrafting of the original remnant of lsrael - an event that does not reach completion until the return of Christ in glory.

As for your claim that Jesus failed to prophesy correctly, well, this is laughable! Does God's Son not know the mind of God?

In Matthew 1:1 we read that there is only one generation in Christ. Try comparing this with the 'generations' of Adam in Genesis 5:1.

Those who exist 'in Christ' do not die spiritually (soul and spirit) although their bodies return to the dust to await the day of resurrection.

When Christ prophesied about events in the land of lsrael, he conflated the events of the early Church apostles with the events of the end times, when the fig tree puts forth its leaves. In other words, the work that began with the apostles amongst the Jews will be completed when lsrael is again gathered in its own land.

There are no inconsistencies in any of the passages of scripture that you quote. The listeners who became 'born again' of the Holy Spirit would enter spiritually into the body of Christ, and experience the resurrection of their souls. This does not amount to death because there is a 'second death', which is death of the soul [Rev.2:11].

 

[blü 2]

God has not chosen any other people to be his people

[He] certainly didn't choose the Christians, who thanks to Paul shucked [his] covenant of circumcision. And there's no sense in which Jesus was a Jewish messiah, being neither a military, civil or religious leader of the Jews. Indeed, instead of Jesus restoring Judea to an independent Jewish state, one conspicuous result of Christianity is two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous antisemitism, no?

As for your claim that Jesus failed to prophesy correctly, well, this is laughable! Does God's Son not know the mind of God?

Jesus expressly states he doesn't always know God's mind eg

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

In Matthew 1:1 we read that there is only one generation in Christ. Try comparing this with the 'generations' of Adam in Genesis 5:1.

We don't read any such thing in my version, which reads

Matthew 1:1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, son of David the son of Abraham.​

(And there follows a false genealogy of Jesus to show he was descended from David, coupled with the absurdity that his father, according to the author of Matthew, was God in person, and not Joseph at all. The same problems arise with the 'genealogy' and paternity of Luke's Jesus. Mark's Jesus, as you know, denied he was descended from David.)

Those who exist 'in Christ' do not die spiritually (soul and spirit) although their bodies return to the dust to await the day of resurrection.

The texts I quoted promised the establishment of the Kingdom in the lifetime of members of Jesus' audience, and two thousand years later, still nothing of the kind has happened.

I know a dud prophecy when I see one.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans existed first before the choice a practice science

O earth and it's heavens two variable bodies existed first.

First in a science theory is NEVER a human.

Then men say Sion. Fu Sion. Fis Sion.

Bible my man's science confess of Sion.

What I caused.

O earth science products does not speak.

Heavens gases first does not speak.
Water does not speak.

Trees plant life oxygen of life does not speak.

Human men speak

Man's Sion bible confession...I spoke on behalf of god .....

Not I am God. Not I speak as God. I speak on behalf of god.

As I theoried gods O earths dusts myself.

Dust is not a science unless a rock planet exists first for a man to take the dust and change the dust into not a dust.

As dust was once mass first... dust is already removed by radiation conversion as not mass and not God itself. It is a dust separated.

It begins not as one as mass just a dust.

If you theory earth is a dust it is man's science only beginnings. As science. Used by science any type of dust first then science theories mass to become just a dust in a theory.

By his claim a dust is first in radiating space. Not O the planet.

First.

So earth O released radiation to try to be just first a dust as just for man's science instead of it's natural mass.

Why you caused sin holes. Sink holes.

Pretty basic man's science theist is a liar. Was proven to be a liar. Life's destroyer. Named our destroyer. Told men took O earths gods owned saviour ice and sacrificed it.

Gods owned bodies not man's body.

Confess of Sion. Scientists. Men said I spoke for God. God never spoke. God owned no name first. I spoke on behalf of god first which does not in any status make you holy. It was a scientific confession of men.

I spoke for God. Meaning I was a man a scientist and a theist.

 

[Wandering Monk]

I find it interesting that the pharaohs in the first five books of the Bible are never named, But in later books, pharaohs of that later period are named (viz. Necho.) My guess is the reason is that the pharaohs of Genesis and Exodus are mythical.

 

[Redemptionsong]

[He] certainly didn't choose the Christians, who thanks to Paul shucked [his] covenant of circumcision. And there's no sense in which Jesus was a Jewish messiah, being neither a military, civil or religious leader of the Jews. Indeed, instead of Jesus restoring Judea to an independent Jewish state, one conspicuous result of Christianity is two thousand years of rapacious and often murderous antisemitism, no?
Jesus expressly states he doesn't always know God's mind eg

Matthew 24:36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.”​

We don't read any such thing in my version, which reads

Matthew 1:1: The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, son of David the son of Abraham.​

(And there follows a false genealogy of Jesus to show he was descended from David, coupled with the absurdity that his father, according to the author of Matthew, was God in person, and not Joseph at all. The same problems arise with the 'genealogy' and paternity of Luke's Jesus. Mark's Jesus, as you know, denied he was descended from David.)
The texts I quoted promised the establishment of the Kingdom in the lifetime of members of Jesus' audience, and two thousand years later, still nothing of the kind has happened.

I know a dud prophecy when I see one.

What you call a 'dud prophecy' reflects a dud understanding, lMO.

For a start, the portrait of the Messiah provided by Torah Jews takes no account of the 'suffering servant' scriptures. These have been conveniently swept into a bin called 'lsrael the suffering nation'. This leaves Torah Jews only the 'second coming' Messianic scriptures from which to build a portrait.

You may, or may not know, that Jews today expect the Messiah to be the son of David, born of two human parents. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, on the other hand, provide a genealogy that allows for legal and royal legitimacy without Joseph being the natural father of Jesus. This, in turn, fulfils the requirement of the Messiah to be fully God and fully man.

When Christ returns, as promised in scripture, it will be a coming from heaven, in contradiction to the Torah Jewish conception.

You may have your humanistic explanations for the condition of the world in these times, but l rest in peace knowing that the present 'shaking' of the world is entirely in keeping with the prophecy of God laid out in scripture!

And, as for the teaching of Paul, whose mission to the Gentiles is a story of God's unbounded mercy [see 2 Peter 3:9], his Gospel of grace follows naturally from the rejection of the 'suffering servant' (and Messiah) by the Jewish nation.

Why do you think the Jews were expelled from their capital and land after 70 CE? Do you think God was pleased with their decision to reject their Messiah? [Hosea 5:15]

 

[ElishaElijah]

That's also not entirely true. The city was to be destroyed utterly by Nebuchadnezzar and he failed and forgotten by time. The citadel held and the city was repaired. Tyre was never consigned to oblivion. Even Alexandre the Great, 4 centuries after Nebuchadnezzar didn't completely destroyed the city. He destroyed the fortress and reconnected the citadel to the mainland, but Tyre remains to this day an inhabited city.

The way I see it is the mainland Tyre was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and other people throughout history, the Tyre Island fortress was completely destroyed never to be rebuilt and still under the sea and uninhabited. That’s what Ezekiel prophesied. Now the causeway is inhabited as well as the mainland, the fortress…no

 

[viole]

The errors in your assessment:

1) I said “a few” detractors had that motive, not everyone.
2) I then gave a documented example, quoting Mr. Aldous Huxley, who stated that very motive.

in fact, here’s his *agenda* in more detail (quote from “Ends & Means”)….
“I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; and consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics. He is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do. For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. The supporters of this system claimed that it embodied the meaning - the Christian meaning, they insisted - of the world. There was one admirably simple method of confuting these people and justifying ourselves in our erotic revolt: we would deny that the world had any meaning whatever.”

I respect his honesty in revealing his agenda.

well, it could be honest, but it is highly irrational. Either that God exists, or He does not. To adduce a personal motive to reject His word, because it interferes with our “freedom of whatever” is simply very silly, unless we reject His existence by other means, which would make the motives moot. It is a bit like the tale of Satan and the fallen angels: who could be more stupid than the guy who rebels against an omnipotent and omniscient being?

no. Rational people reject the Bible not because it reduces personal freedom, but because, as in my case, they come to the realization that it is just utter nonsense.

ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I do not follow traditions, customs, and doctrines of any religious groups.

I do. Bit ironic, isn’t it?

I only have FAITH in the Bible, and whatever is written in it, I fully believe.

Good for you.

Concerning Jesus, He was fulfillment of many prophesies, and the prophesies about Jesus, fulfill their part in the history of humankind.

Again, before you can convince skeptics, you have to convince people who share your Scriptures, and are experts in the field, while not accepting that Jesus was the fulfillment of any prophecy.

All prophesies came from GOD, directly or through the prophets.

That is why they are called prophets, I suspect. My Muslim friend told me exactly the same.

At present, the only prophecy I recognize as fulfilled, is that believers will be scoffed at, for their beliefs. A self fulfilling prophecy, I would say.

Do you know any one, or a group of people, or a country, that would agree on anything?

Yes. All atheists, for instance, agree to not believe in God. And, well, your disagreement is pretty basic. Comparable to disagreeing whether the moon is made of cheese or not.

ciao

- viole

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes they did. And those people saw the evidence of truth and made the commitment to follow moses. at least 3 million of them...the entire nation saw it and responded in faith.

What that says to us, who did not see the miracles first hand, is that it was real.

Did you walk on the moon with Neil Armstrong? No. But you believe it because you saw the pictures right? but pictures can be faked, even recorded images can be faked. You weren't there when they landed on the moon yet im sure you believe they did. NASA told you they landed, NASA showed you pictures, NASA explained the process. You believe NASA don't you?

So likewise, we dont have to be there to actually see it for ourselves. We can believe the eyewitness testimony of those who were directly involved and who did see it for themselves.





Paul was preaching that Jesus was the Messiah. Not too many jews today like to hear that so of course they will try to discredit paul.

But Pauls explanation of the hebrew scriptures is sound. Even Moses said a new prophet would come and then the Jews would have to 'listen to him and do whatever he tells you' The Jews reject Jesus teachings and wont do as he tells them...they want to keep following the law of Moses so of course they will claim Paul is out of whack.


Pauls resurrected a young man who fell out of a window and died.
Acts 20:On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to have a meal, Paul began addressing them, as he was going to depart the next day; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. 8 So there were quite a few lamps in the upper room where we were gathered together. 9 Seated at the window, a young man named Euʹty·chus sank into a deep sleep while Paul kept talking, and overcome by sleep, he fell down from the third story and was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went downstairs, threw himself on him and embraced him,+ and said: “Stop making a commotion, for he is alive.”+ 11 He then went upstairs and began the meal and ate. He continued conversing for quite a while, until daybreak, and then he departed. 12 So they took the boy away alive and were comforted beyond measure.

Acts was written by the apostle Luke.

Are you interested in having an honest discussion? Your tactics in your replies to me so far suggest you aren't.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You know Hockey, I laugh my head off to think that people actually make the claim that someone would sit and write that Jesus warned of the destruction of Jerusalem in such detail, and nobody living then and after objected to it being a fraud.
Interesting uh. Only centuries - nearly 2000 years after, people that had no idea even of Roman life, are the ones claiming fraud. What do they know? Nothing.
Yet historians, both Roman and Jewish, support the writings. Hmm.

Human beings have been writing works of fiction for many centuries now.

 

[Audie]

What you call a 'dud prophecy' reflects a dud understanding, lMO.

For a start, the portrait of the Messiah provided by Torah Jews takes no account of the 'suffering servant' scriptures. These have been conveniently swept into a bin called 'lsrael the suffering nation'. This leaves Torah Jews only the 'second coming' Messianic scriptures from which to build a portrait.

You may, or may not know, that Jews today expect the Messiah to be the son of David, born of two human parents. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, on the other hand, provide a genealogy that allows for legal and royal legitimacy without Joseph being the natural father of Jesus. This, in turn, fulfils the requirement of the Messiah to be fully God and fully man.

When Christ returns, as promised in scripture, it will be a coming from heaven, in contradiction to the Torah Jewish conception.

You may have your humanistic explanations for the condition of the world in these times, but l rest in peace knowing that the present 'shaking' of the world is entirely in keeping with the prophecy of God laid out in scripture!

And, as for the teaching of Paul, whose mission to the Gentiles is a story of God's unbounded mercy [see 2 Peter 3:9], his Gospel of grace follows naturally from the rejection of the 'suffering servant' (and Messiah) by the Jewish nation.

Why do you think the Jews were expelled from their capital and land after 70 CE? Do you think God was pleased with their decision to reject their Messiah? [Hosea 5:15]

Do thec" teachings" of Paul,include his absurdly false snake story?

As for the Jews, AD 70, it was the,Romans who
were " displessed".

 

[Audie]

The way I see it is the mainland Tyre was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar and other people throughout history, the Tyre Island fortress was completely destroyed never to be rebuilt and still under the sea and uninhabited. That’s what Ezekiel prophesied. Now the causeway is inhabited as well as the mainland, the fortress…no

Look at a satellite photo.
It show the prophecy is false.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...haeological-sites-discussed-in_fig2_311583768

 

[ElishaElijah]

Look at a satellite photo.
It show the prophecy is false.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...haeological-sites-discussed-in_fig2_311583768

You would have to show the Island fortress before destruction pictures and then you would change your view