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Featured Bible Prophecy as Evidence of a bible writers trustworthiness

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Bree, Jan 17, 2022.

  1. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    There have been many so called prophets and 'holy men' who claim to have been the mouthpiece of God. We have many historical religious leaders and those who have created entire new branches of christiantiy. We've seen new religions spring up all claiming divine authorship.

    So this is to look specifically at how fulfilled bible prophecy gives us confidence and trust that the bible is a source that is truly from God.

    An outstanding prophecy is about the destruction of the ancient city of Babylon.
    The prophets Jeremiah, & Isaiah wrote about its coming destruction hundreds of years before it happened.
    Jeremiah wrote in 625bce

    Jeremiah 50
    1 The word that Jehovah spoke concerning Babylon,+ concerning the land of the Chal·deʹans, through Jeremiah the prophet:...3. For a nation has come against her from the north.+
    38 There is a devastation on her waters, and they will be dried up.+....She will never again be inhabited,
    Nor will she be a place of residence throughout all generations.”+
    40 ... “no one will dwell there, and no man will settle there.+


    Isaiah actually named the ruler who would be the one to destroy Babylon 200 years before the event.

    Isaiah 44:24 This is what Jehovah says,...25 I am frustrating the signs of the empty talkers,*
    ...26 The One making the word of his servant come true
    And completely fulfilling the predictions of his messengers;+The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be inhabited,’+And of the cities of Judah, ‘They will be rebuilt,+And I will restore her ruins’;+
    27 The One saying to the deep waters, ‘Be evaporated,And I will dry up all your rivers’;+
    28 The One saying of Cyrus,+ ‘He is my shepherd,And he will completely carry out all my will’;+
    The One saying of Jerusalem, ‘She will be rebuilt,’And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”
    +

    After the destruction of Babylon the jews were released and were able to return to their homeland, Jerusalem, which lay in ruins. They rebuilt the city and temple as foretold.


    The destruction of Babylon is explained by the historical facts (see link)
    Babylon - World History Encyclopedia

    "The Persian Conquest & Babylon's Decline
    The Neo-Babylonian Empire continued after the death of Nebuchadnezzar II and Babylon continued to play an important role in the region under the rule of Nabonidus and his successor Belshazzar (featured in the biblical Book of Daniel). In 539 BCE the empire fell to the Persians under Cyrus the Great at the Battle of Opis. Babylon's walls were impregnable and so the Persians cleverly devised a plan whereby they diverted the course of the Euphrates River so that it fell to a manageable depth.

    UNDER PERSIAN RULE, BABYLON FLOURISHED AS A CENTER OF ART & EDUCATION.
    While the residents of the city were distracted by one of their great religious feast days, the Persian army waded the river and marched under the walls of Babylon unnoticed. It was claimed the city was taken without a fight although documents of the time indicate that repairs had to be made to the walls and some sections of the city and so perhaps the action was not as effortless as the Persian account maintained."



    And thousands of years later the ancient city of Babylon has never been inhabited, it has never prospered and it remains a heap of ruins today.
    This is just 1 example of bible prophecy that can build confidence in the bible as Gods Word.
     
    #1 Bree, Jan 17, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
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  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    What was it you wished to debate?
     
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  3. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    Generally that the bible prophecies are evidence of the bibles trustworthiness and as evidence that its writers are the ones we should be listending to.


    Actually i didnt want it in a debate section... i wasnt sure where else to put it. Can i ask for it to be moved to a bible 'discussions' forum??
     
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  4. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    It's pretty easy to call it a fulfilled prophecy when you omit the source text was written after the fact.
     
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  5. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Why would this be the case?

    What would evidence of the trustworthiness of, say, the author of Isaiah have to do with the credibility of, say, Paul's Epistles?
     
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  6. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    And not to mention, by the OT god is god and only god is god. Going by the NT we see that some others are offered up as god.
     
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  7. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
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    It is not useful for this, and using it for this is a form of divination in my opinion, to get people to listen to you and your opinions about scripture.
     
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  8. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    @Bree
    Didn't you noticed that the prophecy you called accurate was actually inaccurate. The Persian didn't come from the North of Babylon but from the East. The city of Babylon wasn't destroyed and never inhabited again. It remained one of the most populous and important city in the world for another 300 years and remained in existence as a temple city for around 900 years more. That "victory" looks like its filled with errors. The Euphrates was never dried up. It was actually used to flood the city. The Euphrates still flows in Mesopotamia today. Babylon wasn't even seriously damaged nor its population massacred by the forces of Cyrus and the city continued to prosper for centuries and wasn't destroyed by any war. It was actually slowly abandoned with the construction of a new city Seleucia close it where the population migrated to. Babylon was thus largely abandon by a process of migration yet it remained as a "city temple" that is a site of religious importance where large ceremonies were held though sparsely populated on the daily. It grew back a little importance during the Sassanid Empire era and was finally abandoned and partially demolished during the conquest of the region by the Arabs who used the city and its temples as a source of bricks to build Bagdad. Archeological findings seems to indicate that the city was inhabited up until the first millennium AD.

    I would like to mention that both the book of Jeremiah and Isaiah were written significantly later than you claim, at least for Isaiah which specifically mentioned Cyrus by name and the reconstruction of Jerusalem's Temple. If you used the Christian texts for those books (slightly different than the Jewish ones), they were written around the 3rd century BC, well AFTER the even they describe. Isaiah would have been slowly compiled from various sources from the 8th century BC to the 5th century BC until it was completed to what we can read today. In other words, they aren't even prophecy more than backtracked comments on history.
     
    #8 epronovost, Jan 17, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2022
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  9. MyM

    MyM Well-Known Member

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    Hello :)

    In Islam, we have soooo many prophecies minor and major to happen and are happening before the Day of Judgement. :) Would you like to hear some?
     
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  10. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I wasn't even thinking about consistency between books. I just can't wrap my head around a mindset that says "I think there's really good reason to trust Book A, so I'm going to use it as a reason to also trust Book B. Yeah, the books were written by different people, but they got put into the same anthology a few centuries after both authors were dead, so I think that's good enough reason to lump them together."
     
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  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Name an ancient city that was never conquered and ruined.


    There's other abandoned cities.

    Lots that have been rebuilt many times
     
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  12. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Dont want your beliefs questioned?
     
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  13. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Even Rome was sacked a few times.
     
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  14. alex2165

    alex2165 Member

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    I think it is almost impossible to convince atheist by Biblical prophesies and Biblical ideals.

    Because if atheist does not believe in GOD, surely he/she would not believe the Biblical Scriptures.

    But archeological evidence that support Biblical Scriptures and prophesies are very convincing, particularly discovered by secular archeologists.

    Biblical archeology also very important and beneficial and for those who believe in GOD.

    Biblical archeology creates better understanding of life in the past and increases Biblical knowledge.

    This is my own experience.
     
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  15. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    That's right: a person would need to accept a lot of prior clsims before seeing prophecy claims as reasonable.

    ... and I think theists can appreciate this. After all, was it prophecy claims that convinced you of your religion?

    Sure it is.
     
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  16. epronovost

    epronovost Well-Known Member

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    Why do you say such a thing? Archeologists and historians have clamored and repeated for the better part of a century that the Bible isn't history. On this very thread I have completely debunked one supposed prophecy of the Bible, but there are so much more like that. The prophecy of the destruction and oblivion of the city of Tyre in modern day Lebanon being another one.

    There are also plenty of completely unsupported historical events and characters, some deeply important to the Bible's narrative, like the Exodus from Egypt for which we have evidence of absence, the character of Moses and the conquest of Canaan, most famous of which the fall of Jericho which is completely invented too. The Bible does get some elements of history mostly correct, like the name of famous emperors and empires, if only because they relate to famous events that occurred prior to when the text was written like when in the Book of Isaiah talks about the capture of Babylon by Cyrus; the book being written about 200 years after those famous events recorded numerous time prior by other historians and chroniclers isn't exactly surprising. The legends and stories of the Bible do have a pseudo-historical setting after all.

    How can you tell such a huge lie without being red in the face? It's the equivalent of listening to a dumb action movie set in the medieval ear and say this is highly supported by historians because some of the names of the country, some of the equipment and the names of a few places match the historical record despite the fact the same historians would point out to a large swath of anachronism and downright cases of fabrication that shows the story to be fictional.
     
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  17. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    Isaiah wrote 200 years prior and began in the days of Uzziah the king of Judah.

    Isaiah 1:1 The vision that Isaiah*+ the son of Aʹmoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uz·ziʹah,+ Joʹtham,+ Aʹhaz,+ and Hez·e·kiʹah,+ kings of Judah:+

    Uzziah - Wikipedia He began his reign in 783 bce

    Isaiah lived during the empire of the Assyrian world power 200 years before Babylon was a world power.
     
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  18. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    You would need to take each writer on their own merits and test their writings. They are not believed in based on blind faith. They are believed in based on the truthfulness of their word, the compatibility of their teachings and the evidence they give to back up their claims.

    For example, When Moses was asked to go to the Israelites in Egypt, he was afraid the they would not believe God sent him. So he said to God Exodus 4:1 "“But suppose they do not believe me and do not listen to my voice,+ for they will say, ‘Jehovah did not appear to you.’”'
    To prove to the men of Isreal that God had sent him, he was given 3 miracles to perform. Ex 4:1-9.

    So when we are talking about Paul, apart from his writings which conformed to the hebrew scriptures, he did not contradict other bible writers AND he was also performing miracles which is why so many became believers because of him.
     
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  19. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Student People Stabber

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    Isaiah was written at least a century after the Jews were slaves there. Daniel would have been closer to 600 BC (though the book was written about 160 BC).
    And Isaiah did write and live around the early to mid 700s BC, the same time as Uzziah.
     
  20. Bree

    Bree Active Member

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    The persian empire extended far north of Babylon. They were Northern invaders.

    [​IMG]

    Quoted from World History article
    From its 537 bce conquest by the Medes and Persians, it went into a steady decline until it eventually became a mound of ruins....as it still is today.
    After Alexander's death at Babylon in 323 BCE, in the Wars of the Diadochi, his successors fought over his empire generally and the city specifically to the point where the residents fled for their safety (or, according to one ancient report, were relocated). By the time the Parthian Empire ruled the region in 141 BCE, Babylon was deserted and forgotten. The city steadily fell into ruin and, even during a brief revival under the Sassanian Empire, never approached its former greatness.
    In the Muslim conquest of the land in 650 CE whatever remained of Babylon was swept away and, in time, was buried beneath the sands.


    So you think that because Isaiah mentioned 'Cyrus' by name, it means he wrote it much later then claimed? That sounds like a denial of prophecy because it was too accurate.

    He certainly did mention Cyrus by name and Isaiah lived in the 7th century. He certainly wasnt around in the 5th century to write the prophecy.
     
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