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Bible Discrepancies

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Mister Emu, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    linwood, you struggle so hard to not see what is right before your eyes. The passage in 2 Samuel tells us that God "incited David against Israel." The passage in I Chronicles tells us how this was done. Satan was behind what David did. Yet if you will note, David placed the blame on himself. God used this against Israel (I Samuel 24:15-17) God has often used others to accomplish His purposes. Was not Satan behind Judas' betrayel of Christ? (Luke 22:31) Yet Judas himself accepted full responsibility for his own actions. (Matthew 27:4) Unknown to Satan and Judas was that their actions brought about perfectly God's plan of salvation. (Acts 2:22-24) Yet each acted according to their own will.
    Prosecutor
     
  2. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Actually no.

    God didn`t send Satan to do his bidding.
    Satan was God at that point in time.
    The Hebrew term for Satan does not have the same meaning as the Greek and or modern term for Satan
    In Hebrew the word merely means "adversary".

    In this context God was Israels "adversary" in both verses and niether actually contradicts the other.
    Nor does the comparison of the two imply any evil on Gods part.
    They themselves harmonize perfectly when you understand the real use of the word "Satan".

    I just posted it to see who would bite, thanks Prosecutor.
     
  3. Natural Submission

    Natural Submission Active Member

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    i just jumped into the conversation and noticed this quote. i'm sure you mean God was USING Satan right?
     
  4. Mister Emu

    Mister Emu Emu Extraordinaire
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    No, Linwood meant God was "the adversary"(Satan) at the time. Satan means "the adversary" or something to that effect if I remember correctly.

    Not that I nessecarily agree, but I believe that it could be an accurate interpretation.
     
  5. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Yes thats what I mean Mr.Emu.

    The Hebrew word "Satan" has no connotations of evil.
    It`s entirely neutral dependent upon it`s context.

    In this context it remains neutral.
     
  6. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    "Satan was God at that point in time"? linwood, it is a shame that Bible translators over the years were void of your great wisdom. The Hebrew word translated "Satan" in I Chron. 21:1 is the same Hebrew word translated "Satan" in Zechariah 3:2. Did "the Lord rebuke" Himself, linwood? Or is it the case that "God was not Satan at this point in time"? It is true that the Hebrew word can mean "adversary" and in such passages as Numbers 22:22 is a reference to "the angel of the Lord." However there is no reason whatsoever for your interpretation. You cannot pick and choose what meaning you will apply. The context take care of that. The Brown-Drivers-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon says the reference in I Chron. 21 is Satan. Now who got bit?
     
  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member It's My Birthday!

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    Which is why the folks at Bible.org are less than convinced.
     
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  8. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Nope, thats not what I said...twice now.

    You think of Satan as an individual I think of Satan as a pronoun.
    Because in Hebrew Satan was a pronoun not a proper noun.

    You can`t seem to let go of your belief that the word Satan denotes an evil being.
    In the context of the Hebrew language it didn`t have this connotation
    It was used as a nuetral descriptive.

    Gods angel was a "Satan" to Balaam...

    Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ***, and his two servants [were] with him.


    I`m just harmonising it for you.
    Maybe I`m wrong.


    So tell me, where does it state that God sent Satan to incite David to run a census?


    I`m not seeing it in Chronicles.
     
  9. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    linwood, you did not respond to my usage of Zechariah 3:2. Did your "pronoun" rebuke Himself? I also quoted from one of the most recongnized authorities of the Hebrew language. They said the word in I Chronicles 21 is Satan. The King James tranlators so understood it and to my knowledge every major translation since has so understood it. I'm not the one having the problem.
    Prosecutor
     
  10. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I didn`t respond to Zechariah 3:2 because I am in agreement.
    The word for Satan is the same as the verse I quoted in 1 Chronicles 21.
    The issue is not the use of the word but what the word means.

    So even if I assume you`re correct (which I don`t) it really doesn`t matter because if you are correct then the contradiction definately exists.

    Here are the verses...

    2 Samuel 24:1
    Again the anger of the LORD burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah."

    1 Chronicles 21:1
    Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel.

    These two verses are speaking of the same event.
    One says God incited David the other says Satan incited David.

    This is a direct contradiction.

    You justify your harmonization by stating that God used Satan to incite David.
    This would be fine with me if you could offer a reference to where this is stated in Biblical scripture.

    I`ve asked and you keep avoiding the question.

    I ask again....

    So tell me, where does it state that God sent Satan to incite David to run a census?

    It would seem to me that your harmonization is evidenced by nothing other than revealed faith since there does not appear to be any Biblical scripture within either chapter that supports it.

    If you`d just tell me where to find the scripture that supports your harmonization I`ll concede and we can move on.
    How about it?

     
  11. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Your list of contradictions is full of contridictions. For example dry land appeared in Gen 1:9. Also the firmament divided the waters on earth and the open firmament of heaven (the sky) from the waters in heaven (these are the waters that were involved in the flood when the "windows of heaven were opened" Gen7:11).

    Perhaps you copied this from some other site to post here but did you reall research them all?
     
  12. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Hi Sandy.

    I`m sorry but I`m unsure who you`re speaking to.
    I haven`t seen any contradictions about the topic you speak of yet.

    Maybe I missed something.

    Prosecuter,
    So tell me, where does it state that God sent Satan to incite David to run a census?
     
  13. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Hi Linwood! I was speaking to whomever posted the list of contradictions.

    Um, didn't you see the discrepency I posted? May be I could add one about "And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven." Obviously this wasn't "all" living creatures as was suggested by the post but reffered to aquatic life (from the waters) and not the beasts of field.

    Unfortunately I don't have the time right now to go through all of it but the post seems spurious to me.
     
  14. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Ahh..ok I must have missed that or forgotten it.
    This thread has been around awhile.
    :)
    I recently saw a really cool diagram of what you are describing.
    I`ll try and find it and post it here.
     
  15. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    I just started here and am looking back through stuff. I have to go now though. Ciao.
     
  16. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    I already gave the harmony of the two verses, linwood. You chose not to accept my explanation. Why do I need to make the same defense again? Would you believe me a second time?

    Prosecutor
     
  17. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    You haven`t answered the question.

    So tell me, where does it state that God sent Satan to incite David to run a census?

    If you cannot answer the question or the answer is "No where" then your harmonization is based upon revealed faith and has no actual basis in the scripture.
    That would make it invalid.
     
  18. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    "no actual basis in the scripture"

    Now there's an interesting idea for discussions Linwood. Maybe when I get some time to put them in I'll post some of the most common teachings I have found that have "no actual basis in the scripture." One of them is the idea of spiritual death.

    By the way, how do you get those boxed in quote thingies to work?
     
  19. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Sounds interesting to me

    I don`t use the quote buttons at the top of the screen here in the forums, they just confuse me.

    To get the quote box just type [quote ] at the beginning of the text you want to quote and [/quote ] at the end.
    I added a space between the quote and last bracket so you could see it.
    Leave that space out and it`ll give you the quote box.

    I`ve been trying to get intot he habit of just using colored text from the drop down at
    the top there to denote a quote because it`s easier.
     
  20. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    linwood, your background in Bible is either weak or you don't remember very well. When God prophesied that "Satan" would bruise the heel of the "seed of the woman", this was a reference to the crucifixion of Christ. Satan was given the credit for this "brusing". (Gen.3:15) Yet, the Jews were blamed for this event. (Acts 2:36) Add to this Peter said "this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (Acts 2:23). linwood, who was responsible for the death of Christ? Was it the Jews? Was it "Satan"? Was it "God"? If you can see that all three had a part in the crucifixion you can see the harmony of 2 Sam.24 and I Chron 21. God is able to bring about His plan through others while at the same time never being guilty of sin Himself. Yet the text may refer to God as doing it when in fact it is God working through another who is actually carring out God's will. A clear example is God's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" (Exodus 7:3) For anyone to say that "God made Pharaoh's heart hardened without Pharaoh having anything to do with it himself", is in conflict with the Holy nature of God as well as ignorance of the other verses that reflect on the matter. (Exodus 8:15)

    Prosecutor
     
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