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Featured Bible & Critical Thinking

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by AT-AT, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    Complex question. To answer it would be to imply I agree with your view on "larger story contexts" here.
     
  2. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    To be honest, I did react some. A byproduct of evangelist humanist previous post against Christianity with his statement.

    My apologies and asking forgiveness.
     
  3. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    It has excellent allegories I think and has gone on to inspire centuries of literature.

    Still I do prefer some of the later Star Trek series more than the earlier ones...but I see the character of the latter in the former.
     
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  4. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    You are not only forgiven by me, but I do admit I humored the crowd a bit in this thread as part of debate, and that I think you are a good member.
     
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  5. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    There is 1 difference ... the Divine paycheck you get once when you die, so until then no "factual experiences" ... unless being enlightened before
    (or of course the Divine grants you the experience while being alive ... but that does not happen on daily basis is my experience)
    But it is true ... we know nothing for sure, we expect to wake up next morning... but???. Hence the advice to say "Deo Volente" when planning ahead
     
  6. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Well to not answer it might imply that any expression of reasoning must be composed of a series of partial statements that stand alone in their reasoning. In a purely rational argument you may be correct. But in a story, whether historical or fictional, any implied moral may be seen in the sum of its parts rather than its parts.

    In this case the audience needs to be drawn into the questions raised by the earlier parts of the story with some measure of doubt in order to more fully appreciate the message being told in the larger part. The ambiguity of the justice seen in these pieces of the story are resolved in the context of the larger story. The doubt one expresses towards the incidents one experiences in life should not divert one from ones faith in the broader experience of that same life. It is a deep truth of human experience that we are ready to condemn the whole for a perceived failure of a part, but in a systemic reality this is utter foolishness.
     
  7. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Is funny your reply just now ... about 30 minutes ago I was thinking "that's a long time ago I `spoke` with KenS"
    So thinking became true ... similar "believing might come true too" ... that I believe, but I am not sure 100% ... 90% sure max:)
    (There used to be a teacher who never gave 100% on exams ... 90% max. ... the 100% he reserved for God alone; I like that idea ... keeps me humble)
     
  8. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    Alright. But there comes a point when someone has to think, "Only a skilled theologian knows which stories are literal and which aren't."

    And I'm not interested in being a skilled theologian of a book I don't have a ton of faith in.
     
  9. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Dispense with the theologian altogether and read the story.

    Actually any of these old stories are greatly aided by those who through either knowledge of stories and story-telling (which is closer to my area of expertise) or though knowledge of the culture itself can lend a small hand in providing context for the story.

    I would recommend to no one to read the Bible as literal history and each event evidencing God's justice as a full stand-alone example of the morality it is trying to teach.. In that, its truth is fundamentally flawed just as our experience of reality as favorable to morality apart from our own efforts to "make it so" is fundamentally flawed. But in the Jewish Testament at least we often see God as the author both of a harsh reality AND of a morality we are meant to represent in spite of that harsh reality. It requires a definite faith to see that us humans in our beliefs or attitudes can make of reality a stage upon which morality can prevail. The message of the Bible should be seen that it requires our efforts to make of God's creation an experience of God's and humanities sense of morality. That sense of morality is, after all, one and the same. This is true whether we see God as a personification of humanities' understanding of its own ultimate experience or whether we see any truth within the manipulative mouth of a talking snake in the verse Genesis 3:5:

    "For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

    And I should add lest we make the quick, safe conclusion regarding the untrustworthiness of the serpent as a way to dismiss this thought, we can consider the nearby verse Genesis 3:22:

    And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.”

    Here God is both the author of an amoral reality and a promoter of the desire to act morally within that reality. To this mystery I would add the intentionally unspoken but obvious notion that God is also the instigator of humanities' step into moral knowledge out of an amoral reality from which humanity has emerged.
     
    #109 sealchan, Jun 14, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  10. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    @AT-AT ,

    I think what you are observing is a dogmatic approach to religion that discourages critical thinking. A dogmatic approach denies new information and views any change in tradition as negative.

    Fundementalists, in my opinion, seem to be dogmatic in their approach to religion. But there are many outliers.

    Regarding the bible specifically, the stories supposedly took place a long time ago. Belief that they are true doesn't automatically represent a lack of critical thinking.
     
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  11. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Keep in mind that it is impossible to be a well
    informed and intellectually honest fundy.
     
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  12. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    Yeah but suppose I read The Hobbit by Tolkien. It's a great book. But suppose in the book, the plot is about time-traveling into Sauron's fist in a distant past and involves stories of incest between Gollum and Bilbo. I wouldn't read it. Then suppose someone told me "It tells the story of mankind if you read it just right". Do I still read it?
     
  13. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Is that why you have so little success with
    understanding that stories like the 6 day poof
    and flood are just stories of things that did not
    happen?
     
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  14. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    It is really just a vacuous quip.
     
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  15. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    HAH!
     
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Stupid teacher who thinks he is capable of writing
    a perfect test.
     
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  17. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    Your post interests me. Were you just laughing or did you have a bit more to say?
     
  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    My favourite example to illustrate the problem
    comes with a hilarious editors note at the end.

    From Dr. K Wise, a yec paleontologist.

    I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turned against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. [Ed. note: Although Scripture should be our final authority, Christianity is not a blind faith. See Why use apologetics for evangelism?] Here I must stand.
     
  19. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    I finally figured out what direction I should go, when I studied the revelations of the Baha'i faith
    I think I should stress that if my side does have a pretty strong side in this thread, it's because traditional definitions of Critical Thinking tilt in our favor. So the other side could present great arguments, but still maybe lose in the category of linguistics.
     
  20. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I laughed because Audie's claim is funny. It certainly is false if taken literally.

    Really i think she is only talking about a subset of fundementalists. Look at her example. Young Earth Creationists are a dogmatic subset of fundamentalists.
     
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