Bible claims/interpretations that don't make sense

[ArtieE]

There was no "magic"...you do understand the difference between "power" and "magic" I assume?

Definition of magic: "
: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"
Definition of MAGIC

In post number 58 Deeje says and I quote "a supernatural God can override natural laws" and "Finding a "natural" explanation is not necessary for Bible believers". Deeje lives in a world with a magician where magic trumps natural law and we live in a world without her magician. So our arguments aren't valid in her world.

 

[ecco]

AIG is not a site I go to for my references.

Deeje, that is just not true. You go to and quote from AIG when you think it suits your purposes.

Carbon-14 Dating—Understanding the Basics

"The most well-known of all the radiometric dating methods is radiocarbon dating. Although many people think radiocarbon dating is used to date rocks, it is limited to dating things that contain the element carbon and were once alive (like fossils)."

Many people assume that rocks are dated at “millions of years” based on radiocarbon (carbon-14) dating. But that’s not the case. The reason is simple. Carbon-14 can yield dates of only “thousands of years” before it all breaks down."

Most of what is quoted is true. The intended implication is that since C-14 can yield dates of only “thousands of years”', science cannot date old rocks. It doesn't tell the reader that Potassium–argon, not C-14, is used to date old rocks.

Main article: Potassium–argon dating


Lying by omission is a favorite tactic of the very religious. Right deeje?

 

[Twilight Hue]

AIG is not a site I go to for my references.

I take scripture as the real "answer in Genesis"....

Genesis 1:6-7...."Then God said: “Let there be an expanse between the waters, and let there be a division between the waters and the waters.” 7 Then God went on to make the expanse and divided the waters beneath the expanse from the waters above the expanse. And it was so."

There was a division between the waters above and below the expanse. Everything written in Genesis was a simple explanation of what could be observed from an earthly perspective....and it was not written for scientists who would not know a great deal about anything for thousands of years.

The apostle Peter stated something that most people would overlook....a supernatural God can override natural laws.

"First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.” For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people." (2 Peter 3:3-7)

The canopy was held in place by the command of God, so natural forces were not needed. Finding a "natural" explanation is not necessary for Bible believers.

The important thing to note is what the flood means symbolically for those of us who are alive at the time of the end. Even Jesus used it to illustrate what the prevailing attitudes of people would be.....

"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:37-39)

Do you see the earth again filled with violence? I believe we are about to see another catastrophic end to a completely corrupted world....just as Jesus warned. How many people listened to Noah?

It's a shame that standards for believability revolve around from just reading a literary compilation without any basis to go on to determine whether things are true or not.

That's why there's the field of science. How could anyone even believe in things like that without some kind of testing ?

Well I guess " magic" is the number one answer for religious. It certainly looks good on a piece of paper doesn't it? Who can fight against Magic? The sad part is there really isn't any "magic" going on that can be pointed it out at all today. Those are in all actuality and reality, pitifully low standards to go by.

It's just a real shame knowing some people at one point in your life had crippled your ability for critical thinking and determinism using such poor examples of mythology and magic without ever testing anything to prove to you if what they're saying is actually true or not.

Being a theist in the past, I do understand where you're coming from, and how it comes about, however for all intents and purposes it's actually a rose colored mental prison with stained glass that you put yourself in and refuse to come out of probably because it makes you feel good and comfortable in face of the stark realities of life and living that don't reflect whatsoever a world of the fantastical, where anything can happen in a person's mind including feats of magic.

 

[Deeje]

Definition of magic: "
: the use of means (such as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces
b : magic rites or incantations
: an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source"
Definition of MAGIC

In post number 58 Deeje says and I quote "a supernatural God can override natural laws" and "Finding a "natural" explanation is not necessary for Bible believers". Deeje lives in a world with a magician where magic trumps natural law and we live in a world without her magician. So our arguments aren't valid in her world.

Your arguments are not valid in any world but your own. Isn't that obvious? I will direct this to @Nowhere Man as well.

As far as I am aware this definition applies to humans in their practice of "magic". They rely on supernatural power in order to perform their "magical arts" often accompanied by spells and incantations. This definition does not apply to the God of the Bible who condemns all such displays of what he calls "uncanny power". This power is not from God.....but I believe it exists.

I do not recall ever reading that God's use of power ever came with "spells or incantations" nor do I recall ever seeing it used for evil purposes to fool people into believing things that are not true.

I live in a world that proclaims the genius of an Intelligent Creator whose power is evident everywhere I look. Finding a "natural" explanation for everything is something atheists must do in order to ignore the design that is clearly evident in creation. "Accidental" or "undirected" does not describe all the incredible and complex process that take place unseen on this planet every day.

If God put a protective canopy of water above earth's atmosphere, I find no stretch of imagination has to be exercised to accommodate that belief when you see what other things are in place for our protection and survival....like the atmosphere itself. How many meteorites ever strike the earth without first burning up on entry to our atmosphere? Is that magic? Is it just a "natural" occurrence? No purpose demonstrated...its just there...?

Most of the water on this planet is not drinkable for land dwellers, (in fact drinking it will kill us) but precipitation takes place because of a system that ensures that evaporation will lift moisture from the salty ocean, store it in clouds and then dump it on land, ensuring the survival of all of its creatures....."magic"? Or did that just happen too?

Reproduction of all living things is not just one process, but it results in creatures who are able to perpetually produce copies of themselves with all the necessary things available in their environment to support their lives. That just happened, undirected as well, did it?

What causes cells to divide?.....a process that makes all life possible from its microscopic beginnings? Is that "magic"? Can science produce a single living cell that divides? Can it even create a "primordial soup" from which it believes life sprang spontaneously, and then morphed itself into all the creatures we see on earth, both past and present?

If space is black, why is the sky blue? Is that magic? Can you imagine what it would be like to live on earth if the sky was black? Who doesn't feel good looking at a clear blue sky? Accidental?

Can you tell me why color exists? Why is grass green if most animals are color blind? Why do flowers come in every color? Why are they beautiful? Why is anything "beautiful"? Why are humans the only creatures on the planet who have an appreciation of beauty for its own sake? What animals sit and watch a sunset just because its beautiful? Is it all just a fluke?

How much do unbelievers take for granted as they see what are to them "natural" occurrences? What is "natural" anyway?

Why are these amazing things NOT "magic" to atheists? Because they have figured out how they work, (it took humans thousands of years to even begin to comprehend the intricacies of nature) and praise was always given to God(s) down through history....but now that they have gained some knowledge, they imagine themselves too intelligent for a God they can't measure by their own puny and still primitive means. They never give a thought as to why "natural processes" work, or even why they exist in the first place. Mention abiogenesis and watch them wave their hand and say "we don't get involved with that".

All of the processes evident on earth demonstrate purpose and planning....but no one was needed to put all those "natural" processes in place....and you think we believe in fairy stories?

I don't have to point these things out to believers....but it astounds me how blind most unbelievers truly are. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

 

[Deeje]

Deeje, that is just not true. You go to and quote from AIG when you think it suits your purposes.

I think from memory I quoted them once with the qualification that I don't often use them.

Most of what is quoted is true. The intended implication is that since C-14 can yield dates of only “thousands of years”', science cannot date old rocks. It doesn't tell the reader that Potassium–argon, not C-14, is used to date old rocks.

Main article: Potassium–argon dating

I have no problem with the dating of rocks as I see the earth itself as very ancient. I am not a YEC, remember?
Radio-carbon dating relates to living things, not rocks. I was quoting someone else.

Lying by omission is a favorite tactic of the very religious. Right deeje?

Is it ever possible for atheists to not to resort to name calling and slander in order to appear to be right?
You are so predictable.

 

[JJ50]

Much of the Bible is no more credible than the Harry Potter books, but less enjoyable, imo.

 

[ecco]

I think from memory I quoted them once with the qualification that I don't often use them.

Why quote from them at all? Why make an out of context quote ever?

I have no problem with the dating of rocks as I see the earth itself as very ancient. I am not a YEC, remember?
Radio-carbon dating relates to living things, not rocks. I was quoting someone else.

See above.

Is it ever possible for atheists to not to resort to name calling and slander in order to appear to be right?

Sure. See post #60.

You are so predictable.

You're right. I will predictably call out BS whenever I see it.

I also predict that you will continue to post smileys. If words fail, post a pic.

 

[ArtieE]

I live in a world that proclaims the genius of an Intelligent Creator whose power is evident everywhere I look. Finding a "natural" explanation for everything is something atheists must do in order to ignore the design that is clearly evident in creation. "Accidental" or "undirected" does not describe all the incredible and complex process that take place unseen on this planet every day.

OK, so every interaction between all the atoms and molecules on this planet is guided and controlled by your god and wouldn't happen naturally without his constant input? Otherwise they would be accidental or undirected?

The universe is 13.7 billion years old. At what point did your god start to personally direct atoms and molecules to come together instead of just leaving them "undirected"?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

All meat contains blood.

I have been eating raw ground beef, now they call it steak tartare, since I was a child. I like my steaks bloody rare.

Raw tuna, sushi, does not cause illness if properly prepared.

Raw shellfish is safe to eat. Raw shellfish can also be deadly. The people of the OT didn't know that shellfish safety depended on the seasons.

A lot of things, 3000 years ago, were banned due to ignorance. To continue these prohibitions today is nonsensical. On the other hand, eating Romaine lettuce can also make you sick.

The red juice in meat isn't blood (hemoglobin) but myoglobin. All but a trace amount of hemoglobin is removed during the slaughtering process. Other than that though, I agree.

 

[Deeje]

OK, so every interaction between all the atoms and molecules on this planet is guided and controlled by your god and wouldn't happen naturally without his constant input? Otherwise they would be accidental or undirected?

When did I say that? I have maintained all along that the Creator originally created the raw materials of creation (atoms and molecules....matter) and in one mighty act, brought the universe into existence.....he then selected one planet and prepared it for habitation, then he skilfully fashioned beautifully and purposefully designed creatures installed in a habitat also designed to sustain their lives, as he wished. He designed these creatures to be totally self-replicating and self-suffient with programming inbuilt so that their lives could be "undirected" in a direct way. Do men who design the engines in our cars need to sit on the hood to direct the operation for which it was designed? Don't they design them so that they don't have to do that?

The Creator had no time constraints, so it took as long as was needed to accomplish everything.
Do you have tunnel vision? Open your eyes! Isn't this what is observed every day of our lives?

The universe is 13.7 billion years old. At what point did your god start to personally direct atoms and molecules to come together instead of just leaving them "undirected"?

Again.....what do you imagine that I have stated on these threads? It wouldn't matter how long the universe has been in existence....the Creator was around before anything material was created....he produced the matter out of which it is made.....he created the laws that operate everything. But the universe is not "living".....creatures were brought into existence by God fashioning matter into biological beings who were given something that science has never been able to duplicate....."life". What makes living things...live?

None of these processes were undirected, but their continued existence was assured because of the way they were programmed. God's final creation (humans) were designed to represent the Creator by being assigned the role of caretaker. These final creatures were not like animals, (though made out of the same DNA) but given attributes that the Creator himself possesses....in this way they could make conscious decisions about many things, being able to envision the future with a faculty that animals do not have....imagination. Ability to plan the future makes humans accountable for how they do that. That is reasonable, don't you think? I believe that the accounting will come and that in the future, God will have humans living in peace with each other and with the animal kingdom just as he purposed in the beginning. The ones who will be missing from that scenario are those who see no need to take the Creator at his word and who have no intention of fitting in with that purpose. It is a decision they will come to regret IMO.

 

[ecco]

The red juice in meat isn't blood (hemoglobin) but myoglobin. All but a trace amount of hemoglobin is removed during the slaughtering process. Other than that though, I agree.

Well, Dang. Live and learn.

I can't wait until the next time my know-it-all son-in-law makes a derisive comment about my "bloody" steak.

Now, now, John, you know that isn't blood.......don't you?

 

[ArtieE]

When did I say that? I have maintained all along that the Creator originally created the raw materials of creation (atoms and molecules....matter)

But the hydrogen atom didn't appear until the universe was 380,000 years old and the rest of the atoms started appearing later still meaning that either they occur naturally or are constantly being assembled by your god. Which is it? Scientific Explorer: Atoms Part 1: How Atoms Are Made

 

[Deeje]

But the hydrogen atom didn't appear until the universe was 380,000 years old and the rest of the atoms started appearing later still meaning that either they occur naturally or are constantly being assembled by your god. Which is it? Scientific Explorer: Atoms Part 1: How Atoms Are Made

Oh, I just love it when you post links....

....here you go...just the opening words are enough to see something obvious to me, but completely hidden from you apparently.....

"The very first atom, a simple union of a proton with an electron, appeared when the universe was just about 380,000 years old. It was hydrogen."

"Appeared"....what an interesting word.

Is that like...."magic"?

"Big Bang Synthesis

Just after the Big Bang, our universe started out as a tiny seething environment filled with unimaginable energy. In just a millisecond, tiny particles called quarks formed. They come in two stable kinds - called up and down. The temperature was several trillion degrees Celsius. These quarks, attracted to each other by a fundamental force in the universe, called the strong force, quickly formed little groups of three quarks each, called neutrons and protons. About seven times more protons were created than neutrons. Neutrons contain two down quarks and one up quark. Protons contain one down quark and two up quarks."



I don't need to go any further do I?....."up quarks" and "down quarks"....and a "strong force"....very scientific language there. But wait! Could it perhaps be that this "Strong Force" is the Creator?

I just love the way scientists make statements like.... "The very first atom, a simple union of a proton with an electron, appeared when the universe was just about 380,000 years old."

How on earth would anyone "know" that with any certainty?

I also liked the way the author answered a question that was posed to her....

Q "You mentioned in the article that both protons and neutrons are made up of a fundamental particle called quarks. Does it mean that the quarks in all living beings were created a few seconds after the Big Bang ?"

A "All particles of matter – quarks and electrons - in the universe ultimately come from pure energy. If you could heat the Earth back up to over 5 trillion degrees, all of its matter would transform once again into pure energy. This shocking reversible reaction is explained by Einstein's famous equation E = mc2.

You might ask where all this pure energy came from in the fist place? The question of what created the Big Bang is still a mystery, and a question that is currently hotly debated by physicists."

So if "what created the big bang" is still a mystery, how can scientists discount the existence of a powerful Creator? How long will the physicists keep hotly debating something that they will never acknowledge?


Keep em coming....they are entertaining if nothing else.

 

[Deeje]

Aren't orbits amazing phenomena? The smallest things in orbit look a lot like the largest things.

They must have had the same designer....?

Atom

Solar system

Fascinating....

 

[ArtieE]

So if "what created the big bang" is still a mystery, how can scientists discount the existence of a powerful Creator?

So you are saying that if things are still a mystery to us we should just insert a god as a solution and proclaim the mystery solved? Can you name one instance in the history of the universe where inserting a god as an explanation for anything has been later shown to be the correct strategy?

 

[ArtieE]

Aren't orbits amazing phenomena? The smallest things in orbit look a lot like the largest things.

They must have had the same designer....?

Atom

Solar system

Fascinating....

And your explanation for the existence of this designer in the first place? Surely you theists have some theories that can be scientifically tested?

 

[ecco]

Aren't orbits amazing phenomena? The smallest things in orbit look a lot like the largest things.

They must have had the same designer....?

Atom

Solar system

Fascinating....

 

[ecco]

Aren't orbits amazing phenomena? The smallest things in orbit look a lot like the largest things.

They must have had the same designer....?

Atom

Solar system

Fascinating....

What is fascinating is how ignorant you are of science. Your depiction of an atom is 100 years out of date.

Do cars still look like this?

Does this look like the the solar system to you?

The development of the atomic model

​

 

[ecco]

So if "what created the big bang" is still a mystery, how can scientists discount the existence of a powerful Creator?

Circa 3000 BCE: What causes thunder?
Honest answer: We don't know.
Superstitious answer: goddidit.

Some things never change.

 

[JustWondering]

All meat contains blood.

I have been eating raw ground beef, now they call it steak tartare, since I was a child. I like my steaks bloody rare.

Raw tuna, sushi, does not cause illness if properly prepared.

Raw shellfish is safe to eat. Raw shellfish can also be deadly. The people of the OT didn't know that shellfish safety depended on the seasons.

A lot of things, 3000 years ago, were banned due to ignorance. To continue these prohibitions today is nonsensical. On the other hand, eating Romaine lettuce can also make you sick.

Yes, but more people would get sick from pork and shellfish back then, then from eating other livestock. So "God" made rules against eating it. Also, I read somewhere a while back that there may have been economic reasons for why the Jewish god thought pork and shellfish were "unclean".