Bible and Eternal Life

[genifd]

I don't know how many of you know this book "Bible and Eternal Life" by Ally Fine, but I bought it from Amazon - Kindle just before Christmas and read it for a day - It raised so many questions about good and evil about the long path of our spiritual growth which once started in Edem and it is still going on so... I would like to discuss with those of you who know the book and have the same desire like me to share their thoughts.

Merry Christmas to all of you!

 

[genifd]

Dear friends, I keep reading this magnificent book which keep raising emotions and questions in me! I am so glad I found it. So much I'll appreciate if you get involved in a discussion over the book. I am pasting quotes from the book so the conversation to start from somewhere:
The fact that God gives us giudance leads us to the conclusion that everybody has the right of free choice to do something or not. All things are allowed, but not all things are beneficial. Without freedom a person can never be happy- It is impossible! Freedom is one of the deepest inner needs of the soul like the oxygen is necessary for the life of the body.
Free will can be understood if we take into account the fact that we are part of the Whole.
Metaphorically we could say that we are part of God's body. Like our hands, eyes, stomach and etc are parts of our body and each one of them has a certain function. We can apply the same logic to the spiritual world: God is in all of us and in everything that surrounds us, He is scattered on countless parts – material and spiritual.



:clap


By the way does anyone know something more about the author Ally Fine? Please do share!


Gen

 

[genifd]

Would you tell me the exact date of the Easter this year? :yes:

Please let someone tell me when is Easter?
:help:

 

[Pegg]

Dear friends, I keep reading this magnificent book which keep raising emotions and questions in me! I am so glad I found it. So much I'll appreciate if you get involved in a discussion over the book. I am pasting quotes from the book so the conversation to start from somewhere:
The fact that God gives us giudance leads us to the conclusion that everybody has the right of free choice to do something or not. All things are allowed, but not all things are beneficial. Without freedom a person can never be happy- It is impossible! Freedom is one of the deepest inner needs of the soul like the oxygen is necessary for the life of the body.
Free will can be understood if we take into account the fact that we are part of the Whole.
Metaphorically we could say that we are part of God's body. Like our hands, eyes, stomach and etc are parts of our body and each one of them has a certain function. We can apply the same logic to the spiritual world: God is in all of us and in everything that surrounds us, He is scattered on countless parts – material and spiritual.



:clap


By the way does anyone know something more about the author Ally Fine? Please do share!


Gen

that is an interesting way the writer puts it. I kind of agree that God is a part of us....he did create us in his image afterall, so there is something of God in us... besides that the bible says that he also breathed his own spirit into the man and it was because of the spirit of God that the man came to life.

I dont know when easter is this year. I dont celebrate it.

 

[genifd]

that is an interesting way the writer puts it. I kind of agree that God is a part of us....he did create us in his image afterall, so there is something of God in us... besides that the bible says that he also breathed his own spirit into the man and it was because of the spirit of God that the man came to life.

I dont know when easter is this year. I dont celebrate it.

Here's what it says in this book -
Bible and Eternal Life -
""So that is how all of us become the parts of one Whole:
John 14:20
In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Is it possible your own hand to do something, which you do not know anything about? Or is it possible you to assign the task to your eyes to listen? So if we transfer the logic into the spiritual world we can conclude: The free will is within what is given to us by our Creator. God conforms to abilities and function of His creation! """

 

[Pegg]

Here's what it says in this book -
Bible and Eternal Life -
""So that is how all of us become the parts of one Whole:
John 14:20
In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Is it possible your own hand to do something, which you do not know anything about? Or is it possible you to assign the task to your eyes to listen? So if we transfer the logic into the spiritual world we can conclude: The free will is within what is given to us by our Creator. God conforms to abilities and function of His creation! """

hmmmm, not sure i'd agree to say that God conforms to the function of his creation.... i dont think that is possible. We can conform to him, yes. But because he is the one who sets all standards and is the standard for perfection and goodness, he cannot and never will conform to the standards of another creature.
Even Jesus rejected the title of 'good teacher' when a man addressed him that way. He say "Why do you call me good, none is good except one, God"

In the scripture you quoted, some other translations include the word 'unity' because the context is not that we are literally a part of Gods body (because he doesnt have one) but that we are united with him. Jesus was saying he was in unity with God and he told his apostles that he wanted them to all be 'in' each other the way he was with God. so its not likely he meant literally.
John 17:21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth.


the way to unity with God is first through knowledge because the unity must be a unity of the mind (spirit)
Ephesians 4:3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

The only way to achieve the 'uniting bond of peace' is through knowledge
1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.

And when your thinking and knowledge are in harmony with God and Christ, then you are on your' way to everlasting life:
John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ

So you see, for us to be united with God, it must begin with knowledge. But not just any knowledge....it needs to be the knowledge he supplies.

 

[arcanum]

that is an interesting way the writer puts it. I kind of agree that God is a part of us....he did create us in his image afterall, so there is something of God in us... besides that the bible says that he also breathed his own spirit into the man and it was because of the spirit of God that the man came to life.

I dont know when easter is this year. I dont celebrate it.

When you say god created us in his image, and as a jehovas witness you believe the human body is essentially the self...does that mean that god resembles a human body? That he has a head, arms, legs etc?

 

[Pegg]

When you say god created us in his image, and as a jehovas witness you believe the human body is essentially the self...does that mean that god resembles a human body? That he has a head, arms, legs etc?

no. the human body is merely a vessel. The part of us which is in Gods image is in the way we think & feel....its our mind, emotions and internal instincts....these things are metaphysical.

For example we think in terms of justice, of what is right and wrong. An animal doesnt think like this. An animal will steal the food of another animal and not think that it is wrong to do that. It will kill another animals offspring and feel no regret or remorse for it because they simply do not have a sense of justice. For an animal, survival is its only instinct.

but being in Gods image makes us seek the benefit of others. When we see someone in need, we have a natural inclination to reach out to help them because that is what God would do. When injustice occurs, we feel angry and indignant because Gods own sense of justice has been put into our minds.

 

[arcanum]

no. the human body is merely a vessel. The part of us which is in Gods image is in the way we think & feel....its our mind, emotions and internal instincts....these things are metaphysical.

For example we think in terms of justice, of what is right and wrong. An animal doesnt think like this. An animal will steal the food of another animal and not think that it is wrong to do that. It will kill another animals offspring and feel no regret or remorse for it because they simply do not have a sense of justice. For an animal, survival is its only instinct.

but being in Gods image makes us seek the benefit of others. When we see someone in need, we have a natural inclination to reach out to help them because that is what God would do. When injustice occurs, we feel angry and indignant because Gods own sense of justice has been put into our minds.

But wouldn't your description of our mind and emotions, how we think and feel, things metaphysical as you said, describe the soul? I've heard you say the JW doesn't seperate the soul and the physical body as they are one, that you need the body to have a soul and they don't exist one without the other. Why do you feel we need a physical vessel to support this metaphysical entity which is supposed to be the part of us that is in the image of god? Does god need a body?

 

[Pegg]

But wouldn't your description of our mind and emotions, how we think and feel, things metaphysical as you said, describe the soul? I've heard you say the JW doesn't seperate the soul and the physical body as they are one, that you need the body to have a soul and they don't exist one without the other. Why do you feel we need a physical vessel to support this metaphysical entity which is supposed to be the part of us that is in the image of god? Does god need a body?

actually, we believe and teach that our physical living body is the soul.

The soul of Adam was his living body, which only came to life, thus became a soul, after God breathed his own spirit into it. So the soul wasnt already living, it wasnt something separate from the man himself...it was his living body.

The soul is not a metaphyscial entity....it is the living physical body. When someone is in danger, they send out an 'SOS'....that literally means "Save Our Souls''
What they are asking to be saved are their living selves.


Really, the way we think and reason is our intelligence. It is the intelligence of God that we have been specially imbued with. So we think like him and we can act like him too.....unlike the animals who are programmed to think and behave in predetermined ways.

 

[arcanum]

actually, we believe and teach that our physical living body is the soul.

The soul of Adam was his living body, which only came to life, thus became a soul, after God breathed his own spirit into it. So the soul wasnt already living, it wasnt something separate from the man himself...it was his living body.

The soul is not a metaphyscial entity....it is the living physical body. When someone is in danger, they send out an 'SOS'....that literally means "Save Our Souls''
What they are asking to be saved are their living selves.


Really, the way we think and reason is our intelligence. It is the intelligence of God that we have been specially imbued with. So we think like him and we can act like him too.....unlike the animals who are programmed to think and behave in predetermined ways.

I could never accept that this corruptible bag of decaying meat is the soul, my opinion is such a belief is rooted in primitive thought. You often refer back to genesis to give your argument weight but genesis is clearly a product of it's times, what the author(s) understood at that time. Do you believe that God himself wrote genesis or man did? I think the Greeks got it right by isolating the personality, which they called the psyche, which I believe is the closest equivalent to what could be called the soul. The psyche while attached to the body is not the body itself.

 

[Pegg]

I could never accept that this corruptible bag of decaying meat is the soul, my opinion is such a belief is rooted in primitive thought. You often refer back to genesis to give your argument weight but genesis is clearly a product of it's times, what the author(s) understood at that time. Do you believe that God himself wrote genesis or man did? I think the Greeks got it right by isolating the personality, which they called the psyche, which I believe is the closest equivalent to what could be called the soul. The psyche while attached to the body is not the body itself.

yes, i see you take the teaching of the greek philosophers as truth. However, for someone who believes that the bible is the word of God, we must look at the bible as our source of truth because it comes from God. By looking at the ways the original words are employed in the scriptures, we can see that the Nephesh/Physke/soul is actually the living person (or animal) themselves.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Philosophers such as Socrates & Plato had some interesting ideas...but thats all they are because they did not come from God, they are mans ideas only...man being infallible and prone to error and man having very little control or knowledge of the world, how it was created, where life came from or where its going. The only one who really knows about life and death is God himself because he was the one who created life and permitted death.

 

[arcanum]

yes, i see you take the teaching of the greek philosophers as truth. However, for someone who believes that the bible is the word of God, we must look at the bible as our source of truth because it comes from God. By looking at the ways the original words are employed in the scriptures, we can see that the Nephesh/Physke/soul is actually the living person (or animal) themselves.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia says: “Nepes [ne′phesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Dt 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gn 35.18; Jb 41.13[21]), blood [Gn 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sm 3.21; Prv 23.2). The soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being. Similarly, in the N[ew] T[estament] it signifies human life: the life of an individual, conscious subject (Mt 2.20; 6.25; Lk 12.22-23; 14.26; Jn 10.11, 15, 17; 13.37).”—1967, Vol. XIII, p. 467.

Philosophers such as Socrates & Plato had some interesting ideas...but thats all they are because they did not come from God, they are mans ideas only...man being infallible and prone to error and man having very little control or knowledge of the world, how it was created, where life came from or where its going. The only one who really knows about life and death is God himself because he was the one who created life and permitted death.

So you believe that the bible is infallible and the literal word of god as opposed to written by man inspired by god?

 

[Pegg]

So you believe that the bible is infallible and the literal word of god as opposed to written by man inspired by god?

no. Of course the bible was written by human hand. those who wrote it were servants of God writing under his influence and direction.

Sometimes they were writing down visions , other times it was a judgement that God had verbally given to them and they wrote down what they heard and were to tell...some wrote the accounts of their own personal dealings with God such as Jonah.

and yes, i believe that what is in the bible is truth and accurate.

 

[arcanum]

no. Of course the bible was written by human hand. those who wrote it were servants of God writing under his influence and direction.

Sometimes they were writing down visions , other times it was a judgement that God had verbally given to them and they wrote down what they heard and were to tell...some wrote the accounts of their own personal dealings with God such as Jonah.

and yes, i believe that what is in the bible is truth and accurate.

Do you also allow for the possiblity that some elements that came through in the scriptures came from flawed men rather than always a pure direct channel from god? In other words do you feel the the biblical cannon that has come down to us is the pure channeled word of God himself?

 

[Pegg]

Do you also allow for the possiblity that some elements that came through in the scriptures came from flawed men rather than always a pure direct channel from god? In other words do you feel the the biblical cannon that has come down to us is the pure channeled word of God himself?

all the men who wrote the bible were flawed. Their failings are recorded in the scriptures for us to see. we know of King David that he coveted another mans wife and killed her husband. We know that Moses got so angry with the Isrealites that he failed to honor God and thereby was punished by God. We know how Jonah failed to feel mercy and compassion for the people of Nineva and acted like a spoiled child when God showed them mercy. Also the Apostles of Christ had their failings too, Paul and Peter had a falling out at one point.

But does this mean that what they wrote was not a pure channel from God? No. In fact, it shows that the writers were sincere and honest in what they wrote.

And yes i do believe that the word of God as found in the bible today (excluding all apochryphal books) is the word of God and can be trusted.

 

[arcanum]

all the men who wrote the bible were flawed. Their failings are recorded in the scriptures for us to see. we know of King David that he coveted another mans wife and killed her husband. We know that Moses got so angry with the Isrealites that he failed to honor God and thereby was punished by God. We know how Jonah failed to feel mercy and compassion for the people of Nineva and acted like a spoiled child when God showed them mercy. Also the Apostles of Christ had their failings too, Paul and Peter had a falling out at one point.

But does this mean that what they wrote was not a pure channel from God? No. In fact, it shows that the writers were sincere and honest in what they wrote.

And yes i do believe that the word of God as found in the bible today (excluding all apochryphal books) is the word of God and can be trusted.

But if you are willing to agree that many of the biblical characters were flawed in their conduct, how do you know that same flawed human nature didn't come out in the various scribes who wrote the books of the bible? Perhaps they thought they were writing the words that god wanted them to, but their subjective nature also came out. Not to mention the revisions that went on as those who copied them made little amendments of their own. What we have that has come down to us is copies of copies of copies, there is no original text that exists for any book in the cannon.

 

[Pegg]

But if you are willing to agree that many of the biblical characters were flawed in their conduct, how do you know that same flawed human nature didn't come out in the various scribes who wrote the books of the bible? Perhaps they thought they were writing the words that god wanted them to, but their subjective nature also came out. Not to mention the revisions that went on as those who copied them made little amendments of their own. What we have that has come down to us is copies of copies of copies, there is no original text that exists for any book in the cannon.

if you study enough of the bible you can see that what is written in there does not reflect the mind of flawed men. If it did, then we would certainly see those flaws come through in its teaching, yet we dont see that.

For example, if you compare the bible to the quran, what you'd notice is that the quran promotes the idea that females are inferior to males....it goes so far as to say that females are a lower intelligence then males. That is a very deeply ingrained male dominance attitude stemming from imperfect and flawed men. Yet the bible upholds a womans value & dignity which is contrary to way men of the time viewed women....so if the bible is a product of flawed men, you would expect to see the same sort of flawed attitudes come through in its writings... but we dont.

for me, that is evidence that the men who wrote the bible were not writing their own ideas about God, but rather God was inspiring them to write his ideas.
And while some claim that that the bible has been changed, its simply not the case. There have been some minor word changes here and there, but nothing that has changed the message or meaning of the scriptures...there are so many extant manuscripts available from all different parts of the world that have been examined and compared and the evidence is overwhelmingly in the bibles favor.