Bible Alone.. For Catholic's

[Dogknox20]

Eastern Orthodox wasn't a church at the time? (I think Pope Urban might disagree with you)

I reply.. I am NOT saying the Eastern Orthodox is NOT Christian!
There was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in the first century and there remained the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church after 1054 A.D. The ONLY Church Jesus established was the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. Jesus did not establish his Church on Andrew or James or Paul or Thomas etc; but on Peter! The Reason the Church Jesus established is Apostolic is because it has roots going back ROCK!

 

[Dogknox20]

I agree, and I'm glad to read this from a Christian, that happens not often

Indeed "ONLY the Bible is man's Authority" clearly is wrong. God gave so many other Great Scriptures, which can be used also as "man's Authority". E.g. Koran, Yoga Vasistha, Gita, Upanishads, or Scriptures from Buddhism, Zarathustra, Bahai, etc.

And for those who prefer to go without Scriptures, God provides each human with Love and conscience, common sense and the power of discrimination. When used well, this is sufficient also. Though I must admit, that the Scriptures seem to accelerate my progress. And being with Saints and Sages has been speeding up this process even more

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stvdv good to meet you...
I reply: The scriptures are the words of God! Man wants to twist and massage and massage the words of God until God says what they want God to have said! The ONLY Authority to interpret the scriptures correctly is The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established on "ROCK" not on sand! This means the ONLY Church Jesus established will not fail it means the ONLY AUTHORITY is still here to this day!
Scriptures are very clear... Rejecting the Church is rejecting God!
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

 

[viole]

Rejecting the Church is rejecting God!
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Prima facie, this looks like a non sequitur. Jesus is not equal Church.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Dogknox20]

What you say here is not accurate. The apostles used the Hebrew scriptures to convince Jews that Jesus was the Christ.

The Holy Spirit, which works in tandem with scripture, acts as a rain to water the word. Without the Holy Spirit the word is not brought to life, or even understood.

The NT scriptures became necessary when the eyewitnesses to Christ, the apostles, were no longer around to give testimony or leadership.

The written word reveals the living word, just as the living word reveals the written word.

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Redemptionsong It is good to meet you..
I agree the scriptures were used... BUT...

Redemptionsong but they were NOT ALONE used! The ALONE part cannot work.. Man needs an AUTHORITY to interpret the scriptures correctly! Otherwise you end up with thousands and thousands man made churches all claiming to have the correct and ONLY interpretation of God' words but NOT TWO...
Redemptionsong not two believing the same things! All coming from the same book!

Fact is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church used "TRADITION" and the "Magisterium" to put her bible together! "TRADITION" and the "Magisterium" are used to Correctly interpret the holy words of God! Those in the great Protest jettisoned Holy Tradition to embrace; Scriptures alone and thus becoming a Tradition of men! They claim "We don't believe in tradition, only the scriptures" forgetting the fact "Scriptures ALONE" is a Tradition that was started my them!

 

[Dogknox20]

Well yes, but you have to recognise that Luther's aim was a noble one: to strip away the barnacles of doubtful dogma and practices that had accumulated on the hull of the ship during all that time. The Catholic church of his day was rife with corruption. I actually think Luther did the Catholic church a favour, forcing it, in time, to confront its defects and reform.

I agree though it is sad to see the splintering of some of the Protestant churches into groups that seem to make up their own homespun theology from naive readings of the bible. The danger of sola scriptura, it seems to me, is that one cannot avoid interpreting the bible, given that its messages are not always obvious and can appear to conflict. It is therefore better, surely, to have interpretation done by people who have studied and learnt from previous interpreters, handing on a tradition of interpretation, in the same way that we hand on a body of scientific knowledge from one generation to the next. Without that, there is always the risk of reinventing the wheel, perhaps badly. This, for example, is what we see with the denial of science by some extreme Protestant groups. It is obviously quixotic and bonkers to claim - in defiance of actual evidence - that science is wrong, just because of what one has read in an ancient text.

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exchemist good point...
I add: The Church uses Science to find truth! The Catholic Church has observatories pointed to the stars! She started the University system in Europe! Some of the great scientists were Catholic Priests! Truth cannot conflict with other truth!
Example: The Church has always maintained; Human life begins at conception, not at birth as was proclaimed by the abortion industry! Truth cannot be combined with a lie!

The fact there are Thousands of man made churches proclaiming "Bible Alone" proves their error.

 

[Dogknox20]

Prima facie, this looks like a non sequitur. Jesus is not equal Church.

Ciao

- viole

viole good to meet you....
The Church Jesus established on ROCK 2000 years ago is his Body!

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

The Church is the handy work of God... God does all things perfectly!

 

[viole]

viole good to meet you....
The Church Jesus established on ROCK 2000 years ago is his Body!

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body.

The Church is the handy work of God... God does all things perfectly!

Could be perfect. However, here in Central Europe there is a real exodus of people leaving it. On account of its pretty obvious imperfections.

Ciao

- viole

 

[1213]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! ¨...The Church came long before there were any bibles!

But who/what is better authority, Bible or Pope? Should I trust to what is said in the Bible more than to what Pope says? Why not? What makes Pope, or any religious leader in any way more meaningful than Bible, or Jesus?

By what the Bible tells, "Christian" meant originally a disciple of Jesus. They are people who remain loyal to Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And because the words of Jesus are in the Bible, it is greater than modern human leaders, for the people who want to be loyal to Jesus.

 

[Clear]

Hi @Dogknox20

Dogknox20 said to @URAVIP2ME : " URAVIP2ME I must point out there was only ONE (1) Christian congregation until 1054 A.D.! That ONE Congregation was the ONLY Church Jesus established, it is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church none other!" (POST #11)


Ths is false historically.

Firstly, the “One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church” of Roman claim did not exist in this early period but came into being in later centuries and it was a different church with different aims and procedures, and goals than the original simple roman congregation of the Church of Jesus Christ which was started there centuries before.

Secondly, The first Christian church was the church in Jerusalem and Rome would have been subject to Jerusalem and it’s authority if one is to claim apostolic origins and leadership.

Thirdly, there were many other Churches of Jesus Christ that were older and of higher priority of size and pre-eminence than that of the simple roman congregation. For example, there were churches in Antioch, Alexandria, Ephesus, Thessalonia, Phillipi, Corinth, etc.


Similar points can be made for the many canons that existed and now exist. While the Roman Catholic Church of later centuries certainly had a right to determine the canon it would hold to, it creates no responsibility for other churches to adopt the same canon and they were left free to adopt their own canons, such as the eastern Orthodox/Ethiopian, or the smaller canon of the churches of the Reformation.

Clear
δρφιφιω

 

[stvdv]

Scriptures are very clear... Rejecting the Church is rejecting God!
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Good verse

Shirdi Sai Baba (Indian Saint) has said the same "IF you reject the other you reject me".

Scriptures are very clear... Rejecting the Church is rejecting God!

So, reading your above quote you must also agree with "rejecting other (non Christian) Religions = rejecting God too"

 

[DNB]

Not to mention that the vast majority of people have been illiterate during the majority of Christianity's existence. The majority of Christians for the first 18 or 19 centuries of Christianity wouldn't have been able to read a Bible even if it were freely available! I doubt God was basing their salvation on that. That's partially why Christian churches developed such intricate art, so the illiterate masses in the pews could visually learn salvation history.

To be able to read and quote the Bible is a privilege that most Christians, including great Saints and martyrs, had no access to. But it appears to be a squandered privilege at this point.

But, that nots the argument. The oral tradition became the written word, and therefore for the sake of perpetuity, what has been inscribed in a permanent medium must be regarded as the words of those inspired by divine intervention. Paul was taught directly from Jesus, and saw and heard things that it is forbidden to repeat - he is qualified to write Scripture, and his works are not to be competed with by men who were not speaking under the auspices of God. Many of the disciples performed miracles, and were endowed with the Holy Spirit, these men are not to be challenged by self-promoting mystics or imposters.

There were New Testament Scripture within the 1st century, arguably, the entire Bible was written before 100 AD. So, yes, Sola Scriptura is in the Bible, in the sense that Paul and Peter endorsed those inspired by God, and the words that they wrote - they gave no credence or veracity to anything outside of these principles.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But, that nots the argument. The oral tradition became the written word, and therefore for the sake of perpetuity, what has been inscribed in a permanent medium must be regarded as the words of those inspired by divine intervention. Paul was taught directly from Jesus, and saw and heard things that it is forbidden to repeat - he is qualified to write Scripture, and his works are not to be competed with by men who were not speaking under the auspices of God. Many of the disciples performed miracles, and were endowed with the Holy Spirit, these men are not to be challenged by self-promoting mystics or imposters.

There were New Testament Scripture within the 1st century, arguably, the entire Bible was written before 100 AD. So, yes, Sola Scriptura is in the Bible, in the sense that Paul and Peter endorsed those inspired by God, and the words that they wrote - they gave no credence or veracity to anything outside of these principles.

2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

I'm not defying that the the Bible is sacred scripture. I fully believe that. You haven't addressed that the vast majority of people throughout Christian history have been illiterate, even in the Christian West, and wouldn't have been able to read the Bible and much else to begin with.

 

[DNB]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural! This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

The Bible teaches that only inspired men have authority, and these men were equipped and compelled to inscribe such divine oracles to a permanent medium. Men moved by their own personal motivations or delusions, have corrupted Church precepts with their, easily recognizable, perversions of Christian dogma and doctrine.
i.e. Intercession of the saints, Mary's immaculate conception or assumption into heaven, indulgences, purgatory, penance, vicar of Christ, infallibility of a man, celibacy of the clergy, etc...

Man's tradition has caused more damage and defamation to Christ's Church than the Bible could ever have possibly done, even by the worst exegetes. The Bible was complete prior to the 2nd Century, and therefore, God superintended that His oracles were to be preserved and unadulterated until the return of Christ. The Bible is thus authoritative and sufficient.


2 Peter 1:19-21
19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[DNB]

I'm not defying that the the Bible is sacred scripture. I fully believe that. You haven't addressed that the vast majority of people throughout Christian history have been illiterate, even in the Christian West, and wouldn't have been able to read the Bible and much else to begin with.

...you're correct, i forgot to address that, but meant to...
...they were taught orally by others reading Scripture. To all those who created icons, images or some other visual medium, derived all their subject matter from Scripture, and nowhere else.
The Word was read and memorized, and whoever taught God's will, quoted Scripture. Scripture has always prevailed as the solitary source of information that leads to gain God's approbation, and to attain salvation.
Moses wrote the oracles of God down on tablets, and all Israelites were taught directly from Moses' writings. Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah/Baruch, Ezekial, Ezra, John, Matthew, Luke, and Paul wrote extensively, comprehensively, and exhaustively. The Bible is sufficient, and no other works or words hold the same authority and truth than does Scripture.

You have seen the damage that the Pseudepigrapha works have caused, and even the apocryphal. The Bible has been compiled and preserved since Moses' time, and finalized by the Apostle John - is there a better pedigree than that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

...you're correct, i forgot to address that, but meant to...
...they were taught orally by others reading Scripture. To all those who created icons, images or some other visual medium, derived all their subject matter from Scripture, and nowhere else.
The Word was read and memorized, and whoever taught God's will, quoted Scripture. Scripture has always prevailed as the solitary source of information that leads to gain God's approbation, and to attain salvation.
Moses wrote the oracles of God down on tablets, and all Israelites were taught directly from Moses' writings. Samuel, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah/Baruch, Ezekial, Ezra, John, Matthew, Luke, and Paul wrote extensively, comprehensively, and exhaustively. The Bible is sufficient, and no other works or words hold the same authority and truth than does Scripture.

You have seen the damage that the Pseudepigrapha works have caused, and even the apocryphal. The Bible has been compiled and preserved since Moses' time, and finalized by the Apostle John - is there a better pedigree than that?

I accept the Catholic and Orthodox Biblical canons as valid (including Enoch and so on), so your last paragraph doesn't mean much to me. Does the story of the 3 youths in the fiery furnace not have spiritual significance to you? Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego - Wikipedia
It does to me, as it does to many millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The Protestants just removed a bunch of Biblical material because they decided they didn't like it, even though ancient Christians accepted those materials as canon. To me, the Prot Bible with their 66 books is very incomplete.

Also, face to face experience with God is sufficient over just reading words on a page. That's what all Christians are to be striving for.

 

[DNB]

I accept the Catholic and Orthodox Biblical canons as valid (including Enoch and so on), so your last paragraph doesn't mean much to me. Does the story of the 3 youths in the fiery furnace not have spiritual significance to you? Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego - Wikipedia
It does to me, as it does to many millions of Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The Protestants just removed a bunch of Biblical material because they decided they didn't like it, even though ancient Christians accepted those materials as canon. To me, the Prot Bible with their 66 books is very incomplete.

Also, face to face experience with God is sufficient over just reading words on a page. That's what all Christians are to be striving for.

The Book of Daniel in the protestant Bible, despite having lesser verses than the Apocrypha, does include the story of Daniel's friends; Hananiah, Mishael, Azariah. So, yes, I am moved by their faith also - it's Canon.

Protestants did not subjectively remove books, they put them through the litmus test - none of the intertestamental books were written in either Hebrew or Aramaic, none were quoted by any of the New Testament authors or characters, etc...

But, if you think that we are to trust one's personal experience (face to face) in order to teach others, for that is the sole intent of Scripture - save souls, then that is an absolutely absurd approach. Have you ever heard the utterly ludicrous testimonies out there - everyone and their dog have claimed to receive a revelation from God????
Utter nonsense and blasphemers.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But who/what is better authority, Bible or Pope? Should I trust to what is said in the Bible more than to what Pope says? Why not? What makes Pope, or any religious leader in any way more meaningful than Bible, or Jesus?

By what the Bible tells, "Christian" meant originally a disciple of Jesus. They are people who remain loyal to Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

And because the words of Jesus are in the Bible, it is greater than modern human leaders, for the people who want to be loyal to Jesus.

I think the biggest mistake is that Christians have been taught to idolise and worship the name and personality of Jesus instead of God. They have become so fanatical in name and personality worship that I no longer believe they worship God anymore.

Jesus was humble, He even washed His disciples feet. He wasn’t One to turn His followers to anyone but God.

What this has done is that due to this personality worship, other Messengers God sent and were prophesied in the Bible have been rejected by Christians and so God has not blessed their religion with unity and it has shattered into over 40,000 sects.

By listening to the clergy Christians have been taught to reject all the Messengers God has sent since Christ.

 

[Brian2]

.
stvdv good to meet you...
I reply: The scriptures are the words of God! Man wants to twist and massage and massage the words of God until God says what they want God to have said! The ONLY Authority to interpret the scriptures correctly is The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established on "ROCK" not on sand! This means the ONLY Church Jesus established will not fail it means the ONLY AUTHORITY is still here to this day!
Scriptures are very clear... Rejecting the Church is rejecting God!
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

The ROCK is the truth, Jesus, yes?
Luke 10:16 in context is probably not about the rejecting of or listening to the RC Church.

 

[blü 2]

This idea of: ONLY the Bible is mans Authority is NOT scriptural!

This teaching of "Bible ALONE" is a man made TRADITION; until the great De-Formation of the Christian Church it was unheard of, for the first 1700 years Church brought Jesus and salvation to the peoples, there were very few bibles!
Martin Luther introduced this tradition; his idea was to remove Church from his life!
Scriptures are clear: "Jesus gave his AUTHORITY to the Church to Teach all nations"!
Fact is... The Church came long before there were any bibles!

As whoever wrote 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". (Of course, this can only mean the Tanakh, and doesn't include the NT, which didn't yet exist.)

But nowhere does the bible does say the bible is infallible ─ which is just as well.

However, once you move away from the bible (or whichever written texts you're accustomed to relying on), you're in the realms of opinion, about matters which can't be objectively verified.

That's why there are (the net informs me) tens of thousands of versions of Christianity, and that's before we get to Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, and so on and so on.

(If I recall aright, the oldest divine being with a living tradition is the Rainbow Serpent of the Australian First Nations, but [he] too exists in many many different versions.)

 

[pearl]

Well yes, but you have to recognise that Luther's aim was a noble one: to strip away the barnacles of doubtful dogma and practices that had accumulated on the hull of the ship during all that time. The Catholic church of his day was rife with corruption. I actually think Luther did the Catholic church a favour, forcing it, in time, to confront its defects and reform.

What we Catholics don't seem or want to understand is that Luther was concerned for his Church that he was devoted to. Had there been a different pope....... It is also not admitted the Catholic teachings that he kept that the Reformers did away with.