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Bhaktivedanta

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Vedanta means the final determination of truth as the ultimate realty. I have been calling for an understanding that there are two strands to vedanta, the conception that there is Brahman and with it we practice Brahmanism in the philosophy of oneness of advaita, and the other that a Personal God exists as being the final arbiter of what we do in our existence in this life.

In the process of determining the truth through satya-advaita (oneness with truth or truth accommodation) one can go through stages where one is a satya-advaitic atheist to gradual realisation of God and conversion to a person who would describe himself as satya-advaitic theist.

When the final realisation occurs and one lives totally in bhakti (that is fondness for, in devotion to, love for, faith and worship of God as an indwelling Entity) the phase of realisation is described as Bhaktivedanta.

Any considerations?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
MAIN TO SANWARE KE RANG RACHI
(I have been colored in the color of the Dark One)
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I think dualism and non-dualism are both well respected in Hindu thought. What starts as devotion to a dualistic god (Bhakti) ends in merger with that god (advaita).
George, what I have found is that when the true relationship between the individual and God is determined one sees simultaneous oneness and separateness from God. Within that relationship bhakti exists for He sees the limitations of the jiva and adjusts HIs guidance accordingly. So we do not merge with God completely, for we never know when we might need Him with direct advice that will assist our objectives. This is the acintya bhed abheda situation. We can never fully merge with God.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
George, what I have found is that when the true relationship between the individual and God is determined one sees simultaneous oneness and separateness from God. Within that relationship bhakti exists for He sees the limitations of the jiva and adjusts HIs guidance accordingly. So we do not merge with God completely, for we never know when we might need Him with direct advice that will assist our objectives. This is the acintya bhed abheda situation. We can never fully merge with God.
You may be talking about what I have heard called modified non-dualism (which is a respected position in Hindu thought).

Are you thinking here about experiencing while human embodied? I am talking about a merger (or perhaps more accurately a realization an eon or so down the line that the separateness was an illusion).

What do you envision your state to be after a gazillion years passes?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
You may be talking about what I have heard called modified non-dualism (which is a respected position in Hindu thought).

Are you thinking here about experiencing while human embodied? I am talking about a merger (or perhaps more accurately a realization an eon or so down the line that the separateness was an illusion).

What do you envision your state to be after a gazillion years passes?
That is an interesting question. My thoughts are do I need God for any purpose? Do I need Him to guide me through my difficulties? So long as that remains a need, I will surrender and try and merge for as much guidance as possible, bearing in mind that there is both oneness and separateness in our relationship. If I do not need him to guide me through my difficult times I will revert to being just a normal human being and that way maintain my distance from God. For I do not believe in worshipping permanently and further I know that it is impossible for there to be permanent union. If it is impossible for there to be permanent union it is best that there is no union at all. I have my dharma to perform which takes priority. So I anticipate that in due course I will stop doing all my clock checking for messages from God and be just a normal human being with zero merging with God. I have not come to that point yet but I anticipate that this is the most likely outcome even as early as tomorrow. I do not believe currently that God wants me to try and merge with Him permanently.

As far as when gazillion years passes we are all part of the universe and just change the composition of our molecules and atomic arrangements when we die.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
That is an interesting question. My thoughts are do I need God for any purpose? Do I need Him to guide me through my difficulties? So long as that remains a need, I will surrender and try and merge for as much guidance as possible, bearing in mind that there is both oneness and separateness in our relationship. If I do not need him to guide me through my difficult times I will revert to being just a normal human being and that way maintain my distance from God. For I do not believe in worshipping permanently and further I know that it is impossible for there to be permanent union. If it is impossible for there to be permanent union it is best that there is no union at all. So I anticipate that in due course I will stop doing all my clock checking for messages from God and be just a normal human being with zero merging with God. I have not come to that point yet but I anticipate that this is the most likely outcome even as early as tomorrow. I do not believe currently that God wants me to try and merge with him permanently.

As far as when gazillion years passes we are all part of the universe and just change the composition of our molecules and atomic arrangements when we die.
I'm a little confused now by your last paragraph? Do you not believe in reincarnation and a soul?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I'm a little confused now by your last paragraph? Do you not believe in reincarnation and a soul?

I do not believe that we individually have a special 'bit' in our body that we can call our soul and which reincarnates from one birth to another by occupying different bodies. This link describes the life force and soul force that I believe exists: Consciousness Energy of the Universe

We therefore have a soul but it dies at death and disintegrates. God can come through to our minds through the soul force of consciousness energy when we are alive.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I do not believe that we individually have a special 'bit' in our body that we can call our soul and which reincarnates from one birth to another by occupying different bodies. This link describes the life force and soul force that I believe exists: Consciousness Energy of the Universe

We therefore have a soul but it dies at death and disintegrates. God can come through to our minds through the soul force of consciousness energy when we are alive.
Oh, we have fundamentally different beliefs then. I come from the school of thought that says we are animated by eternal Brahman/Atma and that eternal consciousness is what animates our soul which then grows in wisdom through the experiences gained from animating physical bodies.

Your beliefs do not include what Is typically called an afterlife so my gazillion year question was not applicable to you.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Oh, we have fundamentally different beliefs then. I come from the school of thought that says we are animated by eternal Brahman/Atma and that eternal consciousness is what animates our soul which then grows in wisdom through the experiences gained from animating physical bodies.

Your beliefs do not include what Is typically called an afterlife so my gazillion year question was not applicable to you.
In my way of thinking also we are animated by consciousness energy of which the soul force has the three gunas of the sattvic, rajasic and tamasic triad and individually we could be influenced by a blend of these gunas depending on our biological aptitudes. Disintegration of the soul at death means that the soul force leaves the jiva and becomes part of Brahman the overall energy of the universe. Thus the soul is eternal until creation is absorbed into God and with it our personal life stories and wisdom. The wisdom is not transferred to another living entity.

As far as bhakti and merger with God are concerned, once we have reached the state of full bhakti it is irreversible even when one does not mentally try and merge with God any more. We still surrender in bhakti.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
In my way of thinking also we are animated by consciousness energy of which the soul force has the three gunas of the sattvic, rajasic and tamasic triad and individually we could be influenced by a blend of these gunas depending on our biological aptitudes. Disintegration of the soul at death means that the soul force leaves the jiva and becomes part of Brahman the overall energy of the universe. Thus the soul is eternal until creation is absorbed into God and with it our personal life stories and wisdom. The wisdom is not transferred to another living entity.

As far as bhakti and merger with God are concerned, once we have reached the state of full bhakti it is irreversible even when one does not mentally try and merge with God any more. We still surrender in bhakti.
I kind of agree and disagree and am confused in trying to understand this.

Here is my understanding for what it is worth. The soul incarnates a physical body. When the body physically dies, the non-physical parts of the person (the astral/mental bodies) continue on in the afterlife planes for a considerable time reflecting and learning. Eventually, the soul will incarnate a new blank slate (a new physical/astral/mental body). The soul attempts to guide this new being with the wisdom (but not the actual memories) gained from its previous incarnations. The soul carries the memories of all its incarnations.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I kind of agree and disagree and am confused in trying to understand this.

Here is my understanding for what it is worth. The soul incarnates a physical body. When the body physically dies, the non-physical parts of the person (the astral/mental bodies) continue on in the afterlife planes for a considerable time reflecting and learning. Eventually, the soul will incarnate a new blank slate (a new physical/astral/mental body). The soul attempts to guide this new being with the wisdom (but not the actual memories) gained from its previous incarnations. The soul carries the memories of all its incarnations.

I fully understand your beliefs. I used to believe something similar at one time thinking that we need to purify ourselves on a karmic ladder.

Let me explain my knowledge to see if I can wipe away your confusion on what I am saying. When I was studying these things I needed to bring the gunas into the way we think as human beings and so developed the idea that there is guna consciousness, in which consciousness energy of the universe is differentiated into the three gunas as a triangle of influences comprsing the Deva dieities of Brahma (sattvic), Vishnu (rajasic) and Shiva (tamasic) with their Devi counterparts/consorts of Sarasawati, Lakshmi and Parvati respectively. It is these vital gunas in our minds that makes us the diverse lot of human beings that we are. These guna consciousness inputs represent the soul force that makes us act in different ways. Each one of us has a soul unique to us in that it has a particular blend of sattvic, rajasic and tamasic properties. God is above this guna consciousness and we need to give up our free will as gunas to then transcend to God in surrender. The only memories of our lives and personal wisdom that exist after death are collected by God and stored in His heart or heaven (Brahmaloka) where we then exist as devas and asuras depending on how we have lived our lives. If God wants He can make these devas and asuras come to visit us in our lives. I personally have had fleeting visits from my two divine mothers from Brahmaloka.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I fully understand your beliefs. I used to believe something similar at one time thinking that we need to purify ourselves on a karmic ladder.

Let me explain my knowledge to see if I can wipe away your confusion on what I am saying. When I was studying these things I needed to bring the gunas into the way we think as human beings and so developed the idea that there is guna consciousness, in which consciousness energy of the universe is differentiated into the three gunas as a triangle of influences comprsing the Deva dieities of Brahma (sattvic), Vishnu (rajasic) and Shiva (tamasic) with their Devi counterparts/consorts of Sarasawati, Lakshmi and Parvati respectively. It is these vital gunas in our minds that makes us the diverse lot of human beings that we are. These guna consciousness inputs represent the soul force that makes us act in different ways. Each one of us has a soul unique to us in that it has a particular blend of sattvic, rajasic and tamasic properties. God is above this guna consciousness and we need to give up our free will as gunas to then transcend to God in surrender.
OK, I accept the existence of the three guna too in my beliefs.

The only memories of our lives and personal wisdom that exist after death are collected by God and stored in His heart or heaven (Brahmaloka) where we then exist as devas and asuras depending on how we have lived our lives.

I'm not sure how you got to this. I believe in standard Vedantic thought there is also the karana sarira or causal body also called the anandamayakosha (likened to the soul in western thought). This vehicle/soul exists for many incarnations on the lower planes (physical/astral/mental planes). After the death of the physical body, the astral and mental bodies continue to exist for a time on their respective planes as us in the afterlife. This causal body (likened to the soul in western thought) is the repository of all its many incarnations on the lower planes. This soul continues to exist until liberation/Moksha.
If God wants He can make these devas and asuras come to visit us in our lives. I personally have had fleeting visits from my two divine mothers from Brahmaloka.
Yes, I also accept devas/gods that can aid us.
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
OK, I accept the existence of the three guna too in my beliefs.



I'm not sure how you got to this. I believe in standard Vedantic thought there is also the karana sarira or causal body also called the anandamayakosha (likened to the soul in western thought). This vehicle/soul exists for many incarnations on the lower planes (physical/astral/mental planes). After the death of the physical body, the astral and mental bodies continue to exist for a time on their respective planes as us in the afterlife. This causal body (likened to the soul in western thought) is the repository of all its many incarnations on the lower planes. This soul continues to exist until liberation/Moksha.

Yes, I also accept devas/gods that can aid us.
Obviously what I am presenting is a variation of Bhaktivedanta and not the standard Vendantic thought or the other Vedandic strand of Brahmanism. I keep my beliefs nice and simple by my understanding of what God has taught me and I live by that. This way I can get through my days, perform my dharma as best I can and worship God in my own way.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Obviously what I am presenting is a variation of Bhaktivedanta and not the standard Vendantic thought or the other Vedandic strand of Brahmanism. I keep my beliefs nice and simple by my understanding of what God has taught me and I live by that. This way I can get through my days, perform my dharma as best I can and worship God in my own way.
Whatever works for you and we needn't sweat the details if nothing is broken.

One question for my understanding. Do you believe that once we physically die we will no longer have a continuation of our current consciousness (as suggested in Near Death Experiences) prior to moksha still well down the road for most of us? If so, that seems kind of depressing to me and I wouldn't feel much purpose in this life. How do you see this?
 
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