Between Atheism and mysticism?

[SalixIncendium]

How can both be real at the same time? Either an eternal God exists or he dont. To say God exists,then say he dont exist, thats a contradiction. How can that be true?



Oh but it does. And its probably pointless for me to just say so without getting into specifics. Which we can if you want.



Some atheists perhaps. Not all thats for sure.



An uncritical mindset plagues parts of the human race, theists, despite there correct position are not immune to an uncritical mind.



Yea, but, perspective dont MAKE something real or unreal. Reality is what it is nomatter who believes it. Reality is objective.



I already did, everyone has a choice, so do you. I think you should agree with me because im right. However, you have your choice. You think i should agree with you, but you act like you dont care if i do. That part i dont understand.



And how does he understand that? Thats a judgement upon me. He dont know me, yet acts as if he does. Im basically saying 'try me and see if i understand'. You cant assume others will not understand. Just answer questions and find out. Heck, you may even find out your wrong because youl cone up and hit a intellectual wall and not be able to answer something.



Ok, so you WANT THEM to understand your position, right? To fully understand a position is the same to agree with it.

Everything your saying in these posts to me, dont you say them because deep inside, somewhere you want me to agree?



As soon as it turns out wrong, then you just change position, swiftly.



Its pretty lying to ourselves to go around thinking we dont want or care if others agree with our views, yet we keep spouting them off, no?

So, yes, i believe in my views so strongly, i truely believe what i do, that, yes, i think it be logical for everyone to agree with me.

However, there is still that small inkling of doubt in the back of my head that says i could be wrong. Unlikely, but, yes, could be.

If i had zero doubt, then id not even debate period. Why? Because it be akin to debating whether trees grow out of the ground. I would never debate that due to having zero doubt trees grow out of the ground.

We're to the point of this discourse where we're stuck in a loop of me stating that one's reality is based on perspective resulting from experiential evidence and you saying that (your) reality is the One True™ reality and that everyone should agree with you.

Since this has already been established and rehashed, and we are clearly learning nothing from one another here, for the sake of avoiding repetition, I'm going to disengage you in this discourse.

 

[Vinayaka]

@SalixIncendium, @Vinayaka, @Riders It seems to me there is some truth to the notion that Dharmics practice religion while Abrahamics argue it.

Yup.

 

[Sunstone]

As a non-theist, I feel kinship with anyone -- theist or non-theist -- who is not cocksure of everything, and much less kinship with anyone -- theist or non-theist -- who is.

 

[Jollybear]

We're to the point of this discourse where we're stuck in a loop of me stating that one's reality is based on perspective resulting from experiential evidence and you saying that (your) reality is the One True™ reality and that everyone should agree with you.

Since this has already been established and rehashed, and we are clearly learning nothing from one another here, for the sake of avoiding repetition, I'm going to disengage you in this discourse.

See what i mean? You have cut the discussion short because you assume it wont go anywhere or that i wont understand. You dont know that. Ypu may be right, but, you dont know that.

Also, id keep learning if you answered all the rest of my questions. But, you asume i wont learn. Isnt that arrogance?

Im just using logic here. My mind is very prone and given to logic.

 

[Jollybear]

As a non-theist, I feel kinship with anyone -- theist or non-theist -- who is not cocksure of everything, and much less kinship with anyone -- theist or non-theist -- who is.

The fact im willing to continue discussing all the way and not cut it short proves by action that im NOT cocksure. But, anytime others dont answer all my questions and counter everything, THAT makes me closer to cocksure.

Anyone that presumes to know the outcome and thus cut a discussion short, that shows a cocksure to me.

 

[Sunstone]

Mystic to me is embracing the full experience of reality. And it utilizes all aspects of reality.

So, spiritual experiences to gain knowledge of God or the soul. It also does not reject the intellect either, because it understands that the intellect is made also by God. God did not just make the spiritual, he made the physical too.

Thank you for clarifying that. Much appreciated.

 

[Jollybear]

Thank you for clarifying that. Much appreciated.

Your welcome. Curioys though, did you agree with it or no?

 

[Sunstone]

Your welcome. Curioys though, did you agree with it or no?

It seemed to me a quite interesting take on mysticism. Not much in line with my own, but that's not the important thing.

 

[sealchan]

They are 2 different belief systems or one is a lack of belief. I bring it up because to be honest I agree a lot usually 100 percent with Atheists who challenge the belief in God, but i am not an Atheist.

The thing is, my God of my own understanding is my own inner Godself, part of me that is super human and also a God that is a part of nature,and I do believe a power in nature that is super human.

Do if i pray to God, its my own higher self or Nature based.

I also believe in spirits, ghosts and mystical experiences, people who feel led to tell me something I need to know, my feet being on the right path this kind of thing,I also believe in psychic powers.So mystical experiences and dreams yes.

There is a reason why I agree with Atheists a lot here.
Its because I do not believe there is any proof that there is a God, so I will not argue that with Atheists. There is no hell, so no need to change Atheists.

My proof of God is personal experiences with God, its private to me, so I believe. But there's no proof in this world that a God exists so. Just to clear up any misunderstanding of where I stand, I will stand on the side of Atheists in these arguments, however I am not an atheist.

I was asked if i still believe in the Holy Spirit up here not long ago, yes I still feel a God spirit that can take me over such as the Holy spirit at times and be moved by the spirit.But it does not come from a Christian Gidhead like it use to in church.My mystical experiences with dreams are part of that.

That is very close to how I would describe my own faith.

 

[sealchan]

Reality, God, consciousness, karma, truth...these are "whole terms" which refer to the set of all things. As such, in an essential way, no one knows what they mean or even what they are fully. That is why in the mystical tradition it is said "he who does not know, knows".

 

[sealchan]

See what i mean? You have cut the discussion short because you assume it wont go anywhere or that i wont understand. You dont know that. Ypu may be right, but, you dont know that.

Also, id keep learning if you answered all the rest of my questions. But, you asume i wont learn. Isnt that arrogance?

Im just using logic here. My mind is very prone and given to logic.

That is because you are not perceiving precisely what is being told to you. You are rejecting a fundamental truth that truth is simultaneously objective in theory but always subjective in practice.

 

[SalixIncendium]

See what i mean? You have cut the discussion short because you assume it wont go anywhere or that i wont understand. You dont know that. Ypu may be right, but, you dont know that.

Also, id keep learning if you answered all the rest of my questions. But, you asume i wont learn. Isnt that arrogance?

Im just using logic here. My mind is very prone and given to logic.

Two points I'd like to make for you. We can then see how willing you are to learn.

1. I don't make assumptions. If something is unclear to me, I ask for clarification before I come to a conclusion on the information presented. In my experience, not doing so leads to misunderstandings resulting in unnecessary sadness, drama, and suffering. You are confusing assumptions with conclusions.
2. Coming to a conclusion based on evidence presented (your responses to me and @Vinayaka in this thread) is called reasoning, not arrogance. So to answer your question, not, it's not arrogance.

 

[Segev Moran]

They are 2 different belief systems or one is a lack of belief. I bring it up because to be honest I agree a lot usually 100 percent with Atheists who challenge the belief in God, but i am not an Atheist.

I share the same thought as you. I think that a religion that is accepted without questions is a dangerous thing!
I will never trust someone else's truth without having the evidence that will proof to ME (the evidence can differ between people) that what one claims is true or not.

The thing is, my God of my own understanding is my own inner Godself, part of me that is super human and also a God that is a part of nature,and I do believe a power in nature that is super human.

I don't Super human is not something i can accept. All humans are the same. I have yet to encounter a human that presents other abilities than mine. I've met humans who have better control over the same abilities, but nothing our of the ordinary.

Do if i pray to God, its my own higher self or Nature based.

I find myself chatting with God. No answers in the form of words are ever accepted, but i will be lying if i'll say i haven't got any answers.

I also believe in spirits

I don't not in the sense of spirits "walking" among us at least.

ghosts

Not for me

and mystical experiences,

I can't say i believe in mystical experiences, but i surely encounter things that happen that there is no way are purely luck.
I don't regard them as mystical, rather not luck and more of a thing that should have happened.
But they are not mystical, they are simple things that seem to happen in the right time to the right people.

people who feel led to tell me something I need to know,

same here. too many times to consider it chance. But it is only because i know to spot it. in the past, such things were not something i will give much notice to.

my feet being on the right path this kind of thing,

I wouldn't say its like that for me, rather i have a strong feeling when i do something i know is right or wrong.

I also believe in psychic powers.

I don't
Haven't met anyone so far that can demonstrate any such power that i couldn't find a logical explanation to it, so far

So mystical experiences and dreams yes.

Dreams are great. i agree.

There is a reason why I agree with Atheists a lot here.
Its because I do not believe there is any proof that there is a God, so I will not argue that with Atheists. There is no hell, so no need to change Atheists.

What do you mean when you say hell? It seems to be a very broad term and each have its own definition to it

My proof of God is personal experiences with God, its private to me, so I believe.

Same here, yet there are things that i experience that concern many people and all those cannot argue when i present them with the facts that led to what ever we experienced.

But there's no proof in this world that a God exists so. Just to clear up any misunderstanding of where I stand, I will stand on the side of Atheists in these arguments, however I am not an atheist.

I think (as a former atheist) that there is a very clear evidence for God. but it is not something that everyone can see and touch. I think that one need to "tune" himself to be able to see those evidence. this is something that i only came to understand recently (which made me "loose my atheism".

I was asked if i still believe in the Holy Spirit up here not long ago, yes I still feel a God spirit that can take me over such as the Holy spirit at times and be moved by the spirit.But it does not come from a Christian Gidhead like it use to in church.My mystical experiences with dreams are part of that.

In my POV God is far from being a spirit or anything that can be regarded as actual entity. this is also the Jewish religion when it comes to God.
God is not something that is manifested in anything rather in everything.

 

[stvdv]

They are like hijackers of plains who dont know how to drive it

What a wonderful line. This is very applicable when talking about spirituality,

 

[stvdv]

@Riders It seems to me there is some truth to the notion that Dharmics practice religion while Abrahamics argue it.[/QUOTE]

What a creative line: I am curious how many Abrahamics will grant you a "like" for this. And how many will argue this.

 

[stvdv]

I think (as a former atheist) that there is a very clear evidence for God. but it is not something that everyone can see and touch. I think that one need to "tune" himself to be able to see those evidence. this is something that i only came to understand recently (which made me "loose my atheism"

In my POV God is far from being a spirit or anything that can be regarded as actual entity. this is also the Jewish religion when it comes to God.
God is not something that is manifested in anything rather in everything.

I am curious what your definition of God is, to be able to say "there is very clear evidence of God".

 

[Jollybear]

It seemed to me a quite interesting take on mysticism. Not much in line with my own, but that's not the important thing.

Describe for me your view of mysticism?

 

[Jollybear]

Two points I'd like to make for you. We can then see how willing you are to learn.

Learning goes both ways.

I don't make assumptions.

Yes you do because you DID. And it was wrong assumption too. Remember i said i do have an inkling of doubt? If i did not ever debate, then id not have doubt. Just like the analogy i gave about id never debate about whether trees grow out of the ground. So, your wrong, im not arrogant. Im very confident that im right.

If something is unclear to me, I ask for clarification before I come to a conclusion on the information presented

Then why didnt you ask clarification before calling me arrogant?

In my experience, not doing so leads to misunderstandings resulting in unnecessary sadness, drama, and suffering. You are confusing assumptions with conclusions.

Conclusions are also to an extent assumptions.

Coming to a conclusion based on evidence presented (your responses to me and @Vinayaka in this thread) is called reasoning, not arrogance. So to answer your question, not, it's not arrogance.

There is no evidence i was arrogant. Theres only evidence that i have a viewpoint and im strong and logically CONSISTENT with it. You call that arrogance. And when i ask you further questions, you shut the discussion down. So, no, dont call me arrogant when my ACTONS show an openess to see where the discussion lands. Remember, ACTION SPEAKS LOUDER THEN WORDS. Your mind is made up and has judged prematurely on me and that makes YOU arrogant.

But hey, you keep posting because INSIDE, YOU want me to agree with you. You care about that. And THAT IS THE TRUTH!

Ill admit the truth with logical consistency by saying if i believe something, then that means logically i believe its right. If i believe its right, then logically why would i want anyone to believe what i think is false? That means logically i want everyone to agree with me. I can honestly admit that, why cant you?

 

[Segev Moran]

I am curious what your definition of God is, to be able to say "there is very clear evidence of God".

This is not my definition BTW, rather the Jewish one.

God is an initial force that has no relevance to the question of time.
God is not something that can be described as a character, yet we can only use human characteristics to try and describe some of its affect on us.
God is the motivating force behind all the movement we experience in our existence.

The Jewish religion doesn't really define God. God is stated as an Undefined.
Instead, throughout the texts (including the bible), there are only descriptions of the affects of God and the way it operates.

To me, the evidence is very clear.
There is a motivating force. I can feel it, the entire universe (physical) is governed by it.
We know this force was one that split into 4 known forces (there might be more). these forces are what they are, a force.
There is something that causes these forces to operate. we know these forces are initial (at least in the POV of humans) as we suspect they were the initial force that caused our universe to emerge from it singular state.
Even if this theory is not correct, we know for a fact that some force had to act on the energy to make the entire process start. this is what we might refer to as an initial force.
Based on the Jewish religion, BTW, this force is broken into several forces all acting as one. the sum of these forces is what you might call Elohim. (Other names represent different things regarding God)

God cannot be described. it is not a physical nor spiritual thing. it is a sum of both.
Imagine an Atom... When we say the structure of an Atom, we don'y really describe the entire atom, rather the physical parts of it.
We can say an Atom is made of Neurons, protons and electrons as an example. but an Atom is also made of energy, and forces, and many factors that we cant really describe.
You can think of God in a similar manner, we cannot really describe it as it includes many parts we cannot really understand.

Everything in our universe has motion. A rock, although seems still, is powered by energy and is in constant motion. this has been mentioned thousands of years ago by both philosophers and religions.
This movement, cannot be stopped. we know that completely stopping this motion cannot be achieved. although recent studies claim there is maybe a possibility to "freeze" an atom, it is not really a 0 speed. rather something very very close to it.
The state of no motion is called absolute zero.

This motion, is motivated by something. it will be ignorant to think otherwise. you might think that this can be a closed system (which we already theorized), yet the motion it self is always happening. so there is a motion that is constant and is all over our existence.
This is something you might think of when thinking about God.

These three examples are a very small part of countless of things that are described in details in the Jewish texts. all BTW, are mentioned in the bible (OT).

Putting that aside, once you study how to look for God, you will see it. it is not a question of IF, rather HOW.
It took me a long time to understand why i really was "blind". not because i didn't see Gods effects , rather i didn't understand when i saw it.

You probably see it on a daily basis, yet we are all too busy living our lives that we miss it.

There is a very interesting verse in the OT.

It says that if you will follow Gods instructions you will KNOW God. the word KNOW in Hebrew is "לדעת".
It derives from the word "דעת". which means knowing when being translated loosely, yet this is not what it really means. In Hebrew the word "דעת" means "connection".

The tree of knowledge for example, is not really "tree of knowing good and bad". this is a wrong translation, it is actually the tree of connecting to good and bad.

When I red these words, i thought this is really weird. why use the word KNOW? but today i understand it. I actually KNOW God. (not like knowing a friend, rather Know it exists and its impact on our lives).

And again, the word in Hebrew is actually be connected to God.

In every action i make today, i can sense and understand its impact on my life once i understand what it means in the "God's POV".

Its very complex to explain, but the fact is it simply works. i cannot argue against it, and believe me, i tried.
I tried finding excuses for everything, but the fact is, it simply works.

I know it sounds weird, but i can elaborate about it more if you wish.

 

[Firemorphic]

@SalixIncendium, @Vinayaka, @Riders It seems to me there is some truth to the notion that Dharmics practice religion while Abrahamics argue it.

I believe that the Dharmic and the Abrahamic are a yin/yang to the same reality (all other non-materialistic religions seem to fit on either side or in between the two poles) but I do see contention from both sides often. It's frustrating because I can't go up to a Dharmic (at least with their knowledge I am a Muslim) without them telling me the same old trite about what they expect me to be, yet at the same time, it's hard to generally (although there are exceptions) create a positive conversation with fellow Muslims about how beautiful the Dharmic religions are (Hindu religions especially, which I have always loved)


And also, naturally, the Abrahamic mystic and the Dharmic mystic should be best of friends, once they understand each other's use of words.