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Beto wants to tax any church if...

Discussion in 'North American Politics' started by Regiomontanus, Oct 11, 2019 at 7:52 PM.

  1. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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  2. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    I like his reasoning, though. From the article:

    "Yes. There can be no reward, no benefit, no tax break, for anyone, any institution, any organization in America, that denies the full human rights, that denies the full civil rights, of everyone in America."
     
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  3. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Wonderful....taxation based upon agreeing or not with President Wannabee.
    I see potential for mischief & strife.
     
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  4. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    A government agency or a business is one thing, but churches? He just lost most Catholics I think.
     
  5. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    Yeah but are there any taxes you support? ;)
     
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  6. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    Since we do need some government revenue....
    - Fuel tax
    - Recreational drug tax
    - User fees for parks & roads
    - Either a sales or income tax
    But none should be based upon religious or political orientation.
     
  7. columbus

    columbus Conservative Catholic from Hell

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    Beto isn't important enough to go to the trouble of clicking a link. So I'll just ask.
    What does he mean by "opposes same sex marriage"?

    Is he referring to any private organization that doesn't perform weddings for same sex couples? Or is he referring to the huge institutions that spend gazillions of tax deductible dollars trying to influence public policy? Such as the RCC and the LDS?

    Personally, I see a big difference between holding a private opinion and trying to take control of the government.
    Tom
     
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  8. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Personally I think all churches should be taxed. If they own property they need to pay property tax just as any other business does. If they want to claim that they are non-profit they need to open their books just as any other non-profit organization does.
     
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  9. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Active Member

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    This was inevitable when churches allowed themselves to be 501c3 compliant. They never should have. It gives the government the weapon to dictate what the church can or cannot say and who it can let in.

    Everyone hollers about separation of church and state, yet churches being 501c3 compliant is breaking any separation of church and state rule. The whole idea of separation of church and state is so the state would not involve itself in the Church. So they never should have been given any tax break. It had good origins which was to help the churches. But it gave a weapon in the hand of government to use and now you see it coming to pass.

    Christians need to abandon the 501c3 concerning their church. If you can't afford it, sell it. Find something you can afford and pay taxes on it. Or, break up into smaller house churches. I would favor the house churches myself.

    Oh wait, I can here Beto now in the future declaring house churches illegal. Why, cause they don't allow the LGBT community in. The government is not able to control them. They preach hate and prejudice. They must be rooted out. They must comply with what the government says should be preached. And they must include who the government says they include.

    Beto just needs to read up on how China controls the church, and take notes. I'm sure they can give him some pointers.

    The churches need to get out of the 501c3.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
  10. Nowhere Man

    Nowhere Man Bompu Zen Man with a little bit of Bushido.

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    A lot of churches branch out into the for-profit markets from simple grocery stores....

    https://factsandtrends.net/2018/05/23/local-church-starts-its-own-grocery-store/


    .....to entire campuses and complexes.....

    To Fight Gentrification, a Brooklyn Pastor Plans to Build 2,100 Apartments
     
  11. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    Maybe we can tax the donations received by any political party that does not believe in small government. Right now the party in power believes in small government and therefore according to Beto, they should be able to impose its views, on others who disagree, using taxes as a punishment.

    Both Beto's pandering to a minority of LGBTQ members, and my comment on taxing the Democrat party, both violate the first Amendment. But only Democrats are criminal enough to think breaking the law of the land makes any sense.

    Separation of church and state also means separation of state and church. If you can't pray in public schools, you cannot mandate taxes in church. Neither promise will fly in court, unless the Democrats can win in 2020 and stack the courts with cronies. This will be harder when Trump wins in 2020 and senior Democrats judges retire or expire.
     
  12. fantome profane

    fantome profane Have you read the Whistleblower complaint?
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    I have often expressed the idea that churches and religious organizations should pay their taxes. Charities and non profits should still have their tax exempt status, and if a church can qualify under those laws, fine. But simply promoting your religion is not enough to qualify as a charity and religious leaders who own multiple private jets cannot claim their organization is non profit.

    However, I think it is a very bad idea to give some churches exempt status and not others based on political or religious ideology.
     
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  13. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    I would as well, however I like his reasoning that tax exemption is a benefit churches recieve. So if they are actively working to deny citizens their rights, that benefit should be removed.

    Do I personally think churches should be taxed? That's a hard question. Churches provide services that help folks. But there are churches where the leaders profit and have political influence. In these cases, I don't think taxation would be inappropriate.
     
  14. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    When I was an atheist I was all for taxing churches too :).

    "Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest." - Zola

    But anyway, taxing churches will not actually happen here. This news item bothered me because it does nothing but help the Orange Man; Beto is a non-entity but such comments could potentially hurt all Ds. His views are out of touch with most Americans.
     
  15. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I don't see a conflict here, so long as a church opposed to gay marriage keeps quiet about the civil right of marriage. Being able to marry in a church of your choosing is not a civil right, after all. You need to be an adherent of the doctrines of that church. I would be highly sceptical of any claim that O'Rourke would change the tax status of churches with a wide following, just because their doctrines do not recognise gay marriage within their own church.

    I'd like, therefore, to read the small print of what he said.
     
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  16. Regiomontanus

    Regiomontanus non est ad astra mollis e terris via

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    I am not sure that those in power now believe in small government. If you mean less environmental regulations, etc., yes. But they (Rs) seem to be all for expanding the military, seemingly without limit. They are hypocrites- look at the bloated pig they gave us under W, Homeland Security.
     
  17. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Yes, Churches.
    Sure, I am replying on the basis of the quote.

    The problem I personally see is some of the churches where the leaders profit from and use that money and pulpit to actively politically promote issues that affect that effect the rights of people.
     
  18. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I know what you mean, but that is free speech, is it not, so long as they do not preach hatred or unfair treatment of individuals going about their lawful business? After all, one can criticise, say islam, or Catholicism in public, so long as one does not incite hatred or social discrimination. So someone can criticise gay marriage in public debate, surely?

    There are always different ideas competing for the public mind and trying to shape public opinion. One cannot stop that in a free society.

    There are some interesting cases on this. The Belfast baker case was one that is well known in the UK. The baker, being a traditional old-fashioned protestant, refused to bake a "wedding" cake for a gay couple, who had attempted to commission it in order it to test the law. The lower court found the baker had infringed the law but this was reversed on appeal. Belfast bakery did not discriminate in gay cake case, UK's top court rules
     
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  19. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest Greased up & ready for action!
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    If we give government the ability to tax us based upon
    advocacy for or against rights, here are some problems.....
    - It would have the ability to control political speech.
    - People would be more inclined to cheat on taxes
    because of perceived unfairness & inequality.
    - Changing political winds in DC would cause
    taxes to fluctuate regularly.
    - Preference would be given to some religions over others.
    - If we open the door to taxation based upon this area of
    politics & religion, we open it to other areas, eg, punishment
    in the afterlife, treatment of infidels in one's scripture.
    Individuals & businesses provide services which help folks too,
    yet they pay tax. And there are many churches who do not
    provide services except to themselves....they're like a members
    only golf course.
    But I have a solution...
    If churches don't want to pay property taxes, then refuse fire,
    police, & other services paid for by others. And don't compete
    with businesses who do must pay taxes, eg, child day care.
     
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  20. Guitar's Cry

    Guitar's Cry Verisimilitudinous

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    Some very good points, Revoltingest and exchemist!

    I suppose my concern here is that given the lobbying power that comes from money donated through or from some of the mega-churches, free speech in that area becomes a tool to suppress the rights of others. Also--possibly a separate issue--the use of Evangelism to profit off of non-profit status.

    So I would agree that it would be fair to keep tax-exempt status where the church is simply being a church, churching it up and providing for the religious and community needs of its congregation.

    I like this idea, but I can see it becoming dicey as soon as folks die in a church fire.

    I would say that as soon as there is a profit beyond what one would expect from the services of the nonprofit in question, taxation occurs. The whole point of tax exemption is to promote community services.
     
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