Bernie Sanders Praises Pope Francis at Length

[Fish and Bread]

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Sure, American leftists love Pope Francis' positions when they suit him just as the American right loves Pope Francis' positions when it suits them. I don't care about Sanders.

 

[Iti oj]

Hopefully the pope returns the favor. Do you think that's likely?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Hopefully the pope returns the favor. Do you think that's likely?

No. Sanders is a far-leftist socialist who supports homosexuality and abortion.

 

[Iti oj]

No. Sanders is a far-leftist socialist who supports homosexuality and abortion.

So? He has more in common with the pope then any one on the right. This pope seems more concerned with issues like poverty and inequality.

Edit to add what candidate do you think the pope would endorse?

 

[leibowde84]

No. Sanders is a far-leftist socialist who supports homosexuality and abortion.

Do you think that all those who support homosexuality and the right to choose are "far-left"?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So? He has more in common with the pope then any one on the right. This pope seems more concerned with issues like poverty and inequality.

Homosexual sexual acts and abortion are mortal sins. Just because the Pope is concerned about environmental issues doesn't mean that mortal sins are acceptable now.

Edit to add what candidate do you think the pope would endorse?

None. He's not supposed to be playing partisan political games. None of the candidates fully match up with Catholic belief.

 

[leibowde84]

Homosexual sexual acts and abortion are mortal sins. Just because the Pope is concerned about environmental issues doesn't mean that mortal sins are acceptable now.


None. He's not supposed to be playing partisan political games. None of the candidates fully match up with Catholic belief.

Didn't he also say that denying climate change was sinful too?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Do you think that all those who support homosexuality and the right to choose are "far-left"?

He's a Socialist. That's far-left. This is the Catholic DIR and you and iti are not Catholics.

 

[Iti oj]

Homosexual sexual acts and abortion are mortal sins. Just because the Pope is concerned about environmental issues doesn't mean that mortal sins are acceptable now.


None. He's not supposed to be playing partisan political games. None of the candidates fully match up with Catholic belief.

Homosexual sexual acts and abortion are mortal sins. Just because the Pope is concerned about environmental issues doesn't mean that mortal sins are acceptable now.


None. He's not supposed to be playing partisan political games. None of the candidates fully match up with Catholic belief.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think Sanders comments on the Pope will win him some catholic votes?
What would a Catholic platform look like?

He's a Socialist. That's far-left. This is the Catholic DIR and you and iti are not Catholics.

Isn't the Pope a socialist as well? I've only asked respectful questions.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think Sanders comments on the Pope will win him some catholic votes?
What would a Catholic platform look like?

A truly Catholic political platform would be right-wing on social issues and third position on economic issues. The "official" Catholic economic theory is distributism. Distributism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if you want to be truly old-school, Catholic politics would be monarchism. It tends to mesh well with right-wing authoritarian movements like some forms of Fascism, too (no, I don't mean the Nazis). Catholicism and democracy aren't really a good match because modern liberal democracy was part of a Western cultural revolt against the Church and the monarchies of Europe (i.e. the Enlightenment). The Church has somewhat begrudgingly gone along with it although it doesn't really fit into that order of things since the Church is a form of absolute monarchy. (Sorry, I'm just expanding on some things. )

 

[Fish and Bread]

Hopefully the pope returns the favor. Do you think that's likely?

If Bernie wins the White House, I think we can probably expect, as is typical, a meeting between the President and Pope, and I would expect the Pope to have some very nice things to say about the economic and environmental policies of a President Sanders, while diplomatically disagreeing on the social issues.

Right now, Bernie is probably not on the Pope's radar. I don't think he's made comments about any of the Presidential candidates in either party.

I'm planning to vote for Bernie in the Democratic primary, by the way. Big fan of his. Just in the interests of full disclosure.

Didn't [the Pope] also say that denying climate change was sinful too?

He did, essentially. That's what this latest encyclical was about:

http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...-francesco_20150524_enciclica-laudato-si.html

The word "sin" is only used in quotes from Patriarch Barthlomew which the Pope seems to be agreeing with, but there are places where he uses other language to describe what amounts to sin in reference to global climate change.

Here is one passage from the encyclical:

23. The climate is a common good, belonging to all and meant for all. At the global level, it is a complex system linked to many of the essential conditions for human life. A very solid scientific consensus indicates that we are presently witnessing a disturbing warming of the climatic system. In recent decades this warming has been accompanied by a constant rise in the sea level and, it would appear, by an increase of extreme weather events, even if a scientifically determinable cause cannot be assigned to each particular phenomenon. Humanity is called to recognize the need for changes of lifestyle, production and consumption, in order to combat this warming or at least the human causes which produce or aggravate it. It is true that there are other factors (such as volcanic activity, variations in the earth’s orbit and axis, the solar cycle), yet a number of scientific studies indicate that most global warming in recent decades is due to the great concentration of greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide, methane, nitrogen oxides and others) released mainly as a result of human activity. Concentrated in the atmosphere, these gases do not allow the warmth of the sun’s rays reflected by the earth to be dispersed in space. The problem is aggravated by a model of development based on the intensive use of fossil fuels, which is at the heart of the worldwide energy system. Another determining factor has been an increase in changed uses of the soil, principally deforestation for agricultural purposes.

24. Warming has effects on the carbon cycle. It creates a vicious circle which aggravates the situation even more, affecting the availability of essential resources like drinking water, energy and agricultural production in warmer regions, and leading to the extinction of part of the planet’s biodiversity. The melting in the polar ice caps and in high altitude plains can lead to the dangerous release of methane gas, while the decomposition of frozen organic material can further increase the emission of carbon dioxide. Things are made worse by the loss of tropical forests which would otherwise help to mitigate climate change. Carbon dioxide pollution increases the acidification of the oceans and compromises the marine food chain. If present trends continue, this century may well witness extraordinary climate change and an unprecedented destruction of ecosystems, with serious consequences for all of us. A rise in the sea level, for example, can create extremely serious situations, if we consider that a quarter of the world’s population lives on the coast or nearby, and that the majority of our megacities are situated in coastal areas.

25. Climate change is a global problem with grave implications: environmental, social, economic, political and for the distribution of goods. It represents one of the principal challenges facing humanity in our day. Its worst impact will probably be felt by developing countries in coming decades. Many of the poor live in areas particularly affected by phenomena related to warming, and their means of subsistence are largely dependent on natural reserves and ecosystemic services such as agriculture, fishing and forestry. They have no other financial activities or resources which can enable them to adapt to climate change or to face natural disasters, and their access to social services and protection is very limited. For example, changes in climate, to which animals and plants cannot adapt, lead them to migrate; this in turn affects the livelihood of the poor, who are then forced to leave their homes, with great uncertainty for their future and that of their children. There has been a tragic rise in the number of migrants seeking to flee from the growing poverty caused by environmental degradation. They are not recognized by international conventions as refugees; they bear the loss of the lives they have left behind, without enjoying any legal protection whatsoever. Sadly, there is widespread indifference to such suffering, which is even now taking place throughout our world. Our lack of response to these tragedies involving our brothers and sisters points to the loss of that sense of responsibility for our fellow men and women upon which all civil society is founded.

26. Many of those who possess more resources and economic or political power seem mostly to be concerned with masking the problems or concealing their symptoms, simply making efforts to reduce some of the negative impacts of climate change. However, many of these symptoms indicate that such effects will continue to worsen if we continue with current models of production and consumption. There is an urgent need to develop policies so that, in the next few years, the emission of carbon dioxide and other highly polluting gases can be drastically reduced, for example, substituting for fossil fuels and developing sources of renewable energy. Worldwide there is minimal access to clean and renewable energy. There is still a need to develop adequate storage technologies. Some countries have made considerable progress, although it is far from constituting a significant proportion. Investments have also been made in means of production and transportation which consume less energy and require fewer raw materials, as well as in methods of construction and renovating buildings which improve their energy efficiency. But these good practices are still far from widespread.

Thanks for the clarification. Do you think Sanders comments on the Pope will win him some catholic votes?

I hope so.

What would a Catholic platform look like?

I think it would broadly be described as liberal on economics, the environment, foreign policy (The Vatican opposed the Iraq War, for example), and some human rights issues (Opposition to torture, etc.) and conservative on some social issues like abortion and homosexuality, with the exception of the death penalty, on which the Vatican now takes a liberal stance (That it is not justified in our time and circumstance).

Isn't the Pope a socialist as well?

I think looking at his first encyclical and public comments, the Pope would have a lot in common on economic issues with what are known as democratic-socialists, as are common in Scandanavian politics and we are just beginning to see here in America with Bernie Sanders. However, he would not be a socialist in the "old school" government owns all the mean of production, no private property sense, as that is against Catholic teaching. This is a word (socialism) who's meaning has begun to change dramatically even in my lifetime. There are old encyclicals from Popes denouncing socialism, but they of course were referring to the socialism of their time, which was far more extreme and authoritarian than today's democratic socialist parties and movements. I think it is safe at minimum to say that the Pope is well left of center in terms of American politics when it comes to economics as he has explicitly denounced trickle down economics by name, and the support of trickle down economics is essentially an article of faith for Republicans in elected office these days.

From: http://w2.vatican.va/content/france...ii-gaudium.html#No_to_an_economy_of_exclusion

53. Just as the commandment “Thou shalt not kill” sets a clear limit in order to safeguard the value of human life, today we also have to say “thou shalt not” to an economy of exclusion and inequality. Such an economy kills. How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points? This is a case of exclusion. Can we continue to stand by when food is thrown away while people are starving? This is a case of inequality. Today everything comes under the laws of competition and the survival of the fittest, where the powerful feed upon the powerless. As a consequence, masses of people find themselves excluded and marginalized: without work, without possibilities, without any means of escape.

Human beings are themselves considered consumer goods to be used and then discarded. We have created a “throw away” culture which is now spreading. It is no longer simply about exploitation and oppression, but something new. Exclusion ultimately has to do with what it means to be a part of the society in which we live; those excluded are no longer society’s underside or its fringes or its disenfranchised – they are no longer even a part of it. The excluded are not the “exploited” but the outcast, the “leftovers”.

54. In this context, some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naïve trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile, the excluded are still waiting. To sustain a lifestyle which excludes others, or to sustain enthusiasm for that selfish ideal, a globalization of indifference has developed. Almost without being aware of it, we end up being incapable of feeling compassion at the outcry of the poor, weeping for other people’s pain, and feeling a need to help them, as though all this were someone else’s responsibility and not our own. The culture of prosperity deadens us; we are thrilled if the market offers us something new to purchase. In the meantime all those lives stunted for lack of opportunity seem a mere spectacle; they fail to move us.

[...]56. While the earnings of a minority are growing exponentially, so too is the gap separating the majority from the prosperity enjoyed by those happy few. This imbalance is the result of ideologies which defend the absolute autonomy of the marketplace and financial speculation. Consequently, they reject the right of states, charged with vigilance for the common good, to exercise any form of control. A new tyranny is thus born, invisible and often virtual, which unilaterally and relentlessly imposes its own laws and rules. Debt and the accumulation of interest also make it difficult for countries to realize the potential of their own economies and keep citizens from enjoying their real purchasing power. To all this we can add widespread corruption and self-serving tax evasion, which have taken on worldwide dimensions. The thirst for power and possessions knows no limits. In this system, which tends to devour everything which stands in the way of increased profits, whatever is fragile, like the environment, is defenseless before the interests of a deified market, which become the only rule.

[...]I encourage financial experts and political leaders to ponder the words of one of the sages of antiquity: “Not to share one’s wealth with the poor is to steal from them and to take away their livelihood. It is not our own goods which we hold, but theirs”.

[...] But until exclusion and inequality in society and between peoples are reversed, it will be impossible to eliminate violence. The poor and the poorer peoples are accused of violence, yet without equal opportunities the different forms of aggression and conflict will find a fertile terrain for growth and eventually explode. When a society – whether local, national or global – is willing to leave a part of itself on the fringes, no political programmes or resources spent on law enforcement or surveillance systems can indefinitely guarantee tranquility. This is not the case simply because inequality provokes a violent reaction from those excluded from the system, but because the socioeconomic system is unjust at its root. Just as goodness tends to spread, the toleration of evil, which is injustice, tends to expand its baneful influence and quietly to undermine any political and social system, no matter how solid it may appear. If every action has its consequences, an evil embedded in the structures of a society has a constant potential for disintegration and death. It is evil crystallized in unjust social structures, which cannot be the basis of hope for a better future.

But if you want to be truly old-school, Catholic politics would be monarchism. It tends to mesh well with right-wing authoritarian movements like some forms of Fascism, too (no, I don't mean the Nazis). Catholicism and democracy aren't really a good match because modern liberal democracy was part of a Western cultural revolt against the Church and the monarchies of Europe (i.e. the Enlightenment). The Church has somewhat begrudgingly gone along with it although it doesn't really fit into that order of things since the Church is a form of absolute monarchy. (Sorry, I'm just expanding on some things. )

This sounds like a pre-Vatican II understanding of Catholic public policy. Vatican II changed a lot, and the spirit of Vatican II is carrying us yet further.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This sounds like a pre-Vatican II understanding of Catholic public policy. Vatican II changed a lot, and the spirit of Vatican II is carrying us yet further.

No, that's just a simple overview of history. Vatican II isn't the end all and be all of Catholicism. Vatican II didn't change all that much and don't hold your breath on further liberalization. It's actually going the other way as younger people grow tired of the baby boomer's nonsense and seek out tradition. Latin Masses are in high demand. Now, if it goes the way of the Episcopalians, it'll die and people will leave in droves as is happening in every Christian denomination that throws out its traditional theology and stances in order to appease the hostile secular world. I'd just become Orthodox at that point, since they don't seem to be infected with liberalism and modernism like the West is. But I'm not worried about that happening, anyway, even if it is the wet dream of the leftists.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Latin masses are in no way in "high demand". Please provide the source you are getting this from. All the young Catholics I know are in favor of further liberalization.

The Rise of Latin Mass Youth - Crisis Magazine

 

[leibowde84]

The Rise of Latin Mass Youth - Crisis Magazine

Is less than 10% "high demand" in your opinion?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is less than 10% "high demand" in your opinion?

Judging by the article, it appears to be growing.

 

[leibowde84]

Judging by the article, it appears to be growing.

Just out of curiosity, why would you want the priest to speak a language that no one understands? Do you speak Latin?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It was written 2 years ago.

Who cares.

When Catholics were influenced and under the rule of the worst Pope of modern history. At least he had the good sense to resign though.

Excuse me? I have great respect for Pope Benedict. He was the Pope that I became Catholic under. He's a brilliant man. I don't know why you're even in this DIR in the first place.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Just out of curiosity, why would you want the priest to speak a language that no one understands? Do you speak Latin?

There is the Roman Missal, you know. It's important to have uniformity of belief and practice. It is supposed to be the Universal Church, after all. You should expect to go anywhere in the world and the Catholic Mass will be the same. We should have one common language. Latin needs a serious revitalization in Catholicism. It should be taught to the laity and the clergy alike. Also, it's best to have uniformity so as to prevent abuse of the liturgy as we have seen many times.

Also, there is the fact that Mass is supposed to be the unification of Heaven on earth. That should transport you to a sacred, numinous space. "Low masses" shouldn't even exist.

 

[leibowde84]

There is the Roman Missal, you know. It's important to have uniformity of belief and practice. It is supposed to be the Universal Church, after all. You should expect to go anywhere in the world and the Catholic Mass will be the same. We should have one common language. Latin needs a serious revitalization in Catholicism. It should be taught to the laity and the clergy alike. Also, it's best to have uniformity so as to prevent abuse of the liturgy as we have seen many times.

Also, there is the fact that Mass is supposed to be the unification of Heaven on earth. That should transport you to a sacred, numinous space. "Low masses" shouldn't even exist.

Thanks for answering this. And I sincerely apologize for the untrusion. I'm an idiot with the DIR threads.