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Bergoglio said: see you in Hell, maybe

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
"you guys".
May I know what your denomination is?
Weren't you the first one to use the term "you guys"?

You said, "But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below." (Bold and italics added)

I was simply using the same terminology you had used.

And since you were arguing from the perceptive of "Italian Catholics" - I guess you could interpret my use of "you guys" to mean "Italian Catholics".

But that wasn't really my intention - I was just using the same terminology you had used.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Weren't you the first one to use the term "you guys"?

You said, "But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below." (Bold and italics added)

I was simply using the same terminology you had used.

And since you were arguing from the perceptive of "Italian Catholics" - I guess you could interpret my use of "you guys" to mean "Italian Catholics".

But that wasn't really my intention - I was just using the same terminology you had used.

Ok...you meant us Catholics?
We don't search for the Truth in the Bible.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You said that you would leave the Church if it taught that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation.

Then you said that such a teaching was us "judging" others somehow.
The two are not inconsistant, as I'm saying that it is not our role to judge others in regards to salvation as that's God's role, and this is compatible with the Catechism and with Catholic Answers as I previously posted.
The Catholic Church teaches that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation - this is fact.

Non-Catholics and non-Christians can be saved. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums it up this way: 1260 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.

and...

The Catholic Church affirms the truth of this statement, yet also teaches that non-believers can be saved:

“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 16).
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
The two are not [inconsistent], as I'm saying that it is not our role to judge others in regards to salvation as that's God's role, and this is compatible with the Catechism and with Catholic Answers as I previously posted.
I never claimed that they were "inconsistent" - people are very capable of sharing the truth that all Mankind needs to accept the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved - and also judge others.

What I said was - teaching the truth - that all Mankind needs to accept the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved - is not itself a judgment at all.

God has shared His truth with Mankind, and that truth can be found in the scriptures.

It is from the scriptures that we have learned the truth that all Mankind needs to accept the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

Neither I, the Pope, any Catholic or "Christian" are making any judgment by sharing and believing in the truth provided by God contained in the scriptures.

What you are saying just doesn't make any sense.

Non-Catholics and non-Christians can be saved. The Catechism of the Catholic Church sums it up this way: 1260 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved.
and...

The Catholic Church affirms the truth of this statement, yet also teaches that non-believers can be saved:

“Those also can attain to everlasting salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, yet sincerely seek God and, moved by grace, strive by their deeds to do his will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does divine Providence deny the help necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God, but who strive to live a good life, thanks to his grace” (Lumen Gentium, no. 16).
I agree with everything you have just shared - you just don't seem to understand it.

According to the Catholic Church - the honest seekers of truth who never found Christ in mortality will be required to spend time in Purgatory - to be cleansed of sin - since they didn't do that in mortality.

After this period of cleansing God will "invite" them to become a part of the "Kingdom of Christ" - which existed on Earth in part as His Church - but exists in fullness in the life hereafter.

If those who were cleansed in Purgatory are honest and sincere - they will accept God's invitation - come to know the Lord Jesus Christ - and be saved.

They need to accept God's invitation and become a part of Christ's Kingdom in order to be saved.

Because that is what is salvation - gaining entrance into the Lord's Kingdom.

You understand that you're not making sense - right?

What you're saying is akin to, "You don't need to enter the city in order to enter the city."
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
No - it would be more you and those "Italian Catholics" - or any other person ignorant of the Bible - who were shocked by the completely Biblical principle shared by Pope Francis.
I couldn't care less about the Pope. We Italian Catholics have had Pope Borgia, we are used and prepared to anything.
I confess that after the Habemus Papam, when he came out, I remember getting a shiver down my spine.
An unpleasant feeling. That Judge Doom's grinning...
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Impossible - the verse in Revelation I quoted clearly state that all Mankind will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Lord.

Then you had better inform the teaching authority of the Church.

Yet - as a Christian - you would need to claim that the Jewish nation killed their God - the Being that they covenanted with in the first place.

Again, consult the official teaching of the Church, it was Pilate, not the Jewish nation.

They can indeed still receive salvation - but they must recognize who their God is first.

You do realize there is no Christian God, the God of Jesus and Christians remains the God of Israel.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
You understand that you're not making sense - right?
Since I took Catholic theology classes at the college level, and since I've taught Catholic theology to adults for 15 years, I do know what I'm talking about.

Your sarcasm just ended this "conversation".
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Then you had better inform the teaching authority of the Church.
No - the "teaching authority" agrees with me.

You just misunderstood the "teaching authority".
Again, consult the official teaching of the Church, it was Pilate, not the Jewish nation.
The Catholic Church recognizes that it was not all the Jews that were responsible for the Lord's death - that is true.

They instead claim that all of Mankind is to blame for the death of the Lord Jesus Christ - because it is our sins that caused His suffering and death.

However - that fact was not relevant to our discussion about Paul had said.

Since the "covenant" that Paul referred to was one made to the entirety of Israel (which was represented by the Jewish nation at the time of the Lord's death) I made my comment about how the covenant people (the Jews) would need to recognize that Jesus Christ was their God - and that they broke their covenant.

Which is why Paul said, "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6)
You do realize there is no Christian God, the God of Jesus and Christians remains the God of Israel.
The Catholic Church believes and teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the God of Israel.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Since I took Catholic theology classes at the college level, and since I've taught Catholic theology to adults for 15 years, I do know what I'm talking about.

Your sarcasm just ended this "conversation".
An argument from authority and a lie.

You'd think with all of your experience - you could show evidence proving me wrong.

And - I was being completely serious when I asked my question.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The Catholic Church believes and teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is the God of Israel.

NO NO NO it most certainly does not. The doxology following the Eucharist
'“Through Him, with Him and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.”
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
NO NO NO it most certainly does not. The doxology following the Eucharist
'“Through Him, with Him and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty Father, for ever and ever.”
I'm not trying to embarrass you - but you don't seem to understand the Catholic concept of the Trinity.

The Catholic Church firmly believes and teaches that the Lord Jesus Christ is God - the same God of the Old Testament - the God of Israel.

Have you read the Nicene Creed?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Have you read the Nicene Creed?

The word Trinity is no where in the Creed, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son is never the Father. When Catholics refer to God, it is the Father, or God the Son. The Trinity is the central doctrine, all other doctrines are based on it.
from the Gloria at Mass
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.
We praise you, we bless you,
we adore you, we glorify you,
we give you thanks,
for your great glory,
Lord God, heavenly King,
O God, almighty Father.

Lord Jesus Christ,
Only Begotten Son,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us;
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: have mercy on us.

For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
The word Trinity is no where in the Creed, but the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Son is never the Father. When Catholics refer to God, it is the Father, or God the Son. The Trinity is the central doctrine, all other doctrines are based on it.
from the Gloria at Mass
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.
We praise you, we bless you,
we adore you, we glorify you,
we give you thanks,
for your great glory,
Lord God, heavenly King,
O God, almighty Father.

Lord Jesus Christ,
Only Begotten Son,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us;
you take away the sins of the world, receive our prayer;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: have mercy on us.

For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
Who is the Son and can you describe His relationship to the Father?
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Who is the Son and can you describe His relationship to the Father?

Isn't it evident? "We believe in God the Father who . . ." and then we profess faith in the doctrines of creation and providence, "and in the Son who . . ." and then we proclaim the incarnation and redemption, "and in the Holy Spirit who..." and then we affirm the Church, the sacraments and the eschatological doctrines.
We never actually say that we believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is not a doctrine next to other doctrines of the faith; it is the only doctrine, and all the others are expansions and explanations of it.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Isn't it evident? "We believe in God the Father who . . ." and then we profess faith in the doctrines of creation and providence, "and in the Son who . . ." and then we proclaim the incarnation and redemption, "and in the Holy Spirit who..." and then we affirm the Church, the sacraments and the eschatological doctrines.
We never actually say that we believe in the Trinity. The Trinity is not a doctrine next to other doctrines of the faith; it is the only doctrine, and all the others are expansions and explanations of it.
Explain the Incarnation to me.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
The one mentioned in your post I was responding to - "and then we proclaim the incarnation and redemption" - what "Incarnation" are you proclaiming? Explain it.

There are differing reasons offered for why the Incarnation. The most popular being that of sacrifice to a vengeful God, a scapegoat, Jesus is sort of an afterthought, due to man's sin, offense to God. Another, not so popular, Jesus is first thought, the reason for creation, and God's solidarity with his creation man.
 
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