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Bergoglio said: see you in Hell, maybe

pearl

Well-Known Member

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What are you talking about?

No one on Earth can judge whether a person has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is between the person and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You understand that what you quoted claims that people of other religions need to go through a period of "purgation"?

What the other RF member and I quoted from explicitly claims that people can accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the next life.

As long as you are a "good" and "honest" person in this life - lively your religion "sincerely" - the Catholic Church believes that you will accept God's invitation in the next life - after they are cleansed from sin.

What I said does not disagree with what you have said.
The above is not at all what I said nor implied.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
What are you talking about?

No one on Earth can judge whether a person has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is between the person and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You understand that what you quoted claims that people of other religions need to go through a period of "purgation"?

What the other RF member and I quoted from explicitly claims that people can accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the next life.

As long as you are a "good" and "honest" person in this life - lively your religion "sincerely" - the Catholic Church believes that you will accept God's invitation in the next life - after they are cleansed from sin.

What I said does not disagree with what you have said.
By the way...if the Pope was joking ...you know...dark humor...
all this doctrinal discussion is useless...I think...with all due respect.

The point of this thread is: can a Pope make that kind of jokes in that kind of situations?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
There are pro's and con's concerning the translation. Ratzinger chose 'for the many', it was closer to the Latin and the Septuagint........

I find in the Catholic Douay at Matthew 20:28 reads 'ransom for MANY '
It does Not say ALL because Not ALL chose to 'walk with Jesus' - 1 John 1:7 (" IF "we walk....)
To me the ' pro ' is to 'repent', and the ' con ' is without repenting one will ' perish ' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
For Christians
What?

Did you even read from that Dialogue and Proclamation you quoted from?

It clearly said that non-Christians would receive the "invitation" from God that leads to salvation.

And that is the Lord Jesus Christ. I will quote this sentence to you again,

"It must be remembered nevertheless that this is indeed an inchoate reality, which needs to find completion through being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church yet realized fully only in the world to come."
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
The above is not at all what I said nor implied.
You said that you would leave the Church if it taught that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation.

Then you said that such a teaching was us "judging" others somehow.

The Catholic Church teaches that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation - this is fact.

We can do this in mortal life - or we can wait until after our period of "purgation" in the next life - but it needs to happen, or we will not be saved.

No man comes to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
By the way...if the Pope was joking ...you know...dark humor...
all this doctrinal discussion is useless...I think...with all due respect.

The point of this thread is: can a Pope make that kind of jokes in that kind of situations?
I do not believe he was joking - I believe he was trying to be modest and teach the correct principle that our salvation is not assured.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I do not believe he was joking - I believe he was trying to be modest and teach the correct principle that our salvation is not assured.

Don't you think that implying that that gentle, loving lady, a caring mother, might go to Hell is really awful?
And it would not be worthy of a pope.
So do you really think he was serious?
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Don't you think that implying that that gentle, loving lady, a caring mother, might go to Hell is really awful?
And it would not be worthy of a pope.
So do you really think he was serious?
I'm with @Fallen Prophet on this one (though it feels strange, given how much we differ on other things). As I said before, the Pope's comment is in accord with the teachings of the RCC and I think he was serious and humble.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
I'm with @Fallen Prophet on this one (though it feels strange, given how much we differ on other things). As I said before, the Pope's comment is in accord with the teachings of the RCC and I think he was serious and humble.

I understand.:)
But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below. Google Chrome can translate them.
It will show that so many Italian Catholics are really shocked by that sentence.
As I am.
I am shocked because Evil and Good are so far away from one another.
It seems like the Pope confuses them
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
I understand.:)
But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below. Google Chrome can translate them.
It will show that so many Italian Catholics are really shocked by that sentence.
As I am.
Maybe many Italian Catholics aren't really informed about what their doctrine on salvation says? Even the Pope doesn't have a guaranteed place in heaven. He knows that and is humble enough to recognize it.
(Maybe he did punch someone in the nose for insulting his mother?)
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Maybe many Italian Catholics aren't really informed about what their doctrine on salvation says? Even the Pope doesn't have a guaranteed place in heaven. He knows that and is humble enough to recognize it.
(Maybe he did punch someone in the nose for insulting his mother?)

But we cannot read his mind. So you assume that he was not joking.
I too can have my personal opinion on that sentence. If he was serious, then I can assume he said that because he is aware he is a wicked man, allied to other wicked powerful men who rule Europe. And that he is aware he will go to Hell.
But that is an assumption of mine, because he was joking, surely.

PS: Catholics believe Hell is for the wicked. The just who are sinful will go to Purgatory. The just who are sinless will go straight to Heaven.
There are no Christians and non-Christians. There are the wicked (also Christians) and there are the just (also atheists).
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
"It must be remembered nevertheless that this is indeed an inchoate reality, which needs to find completion through being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church yet realized fully only in the world to come."

I am not denying that there is no salvation 'outside' of Christ, but non- Christians are saved without acknowledging Christ as their savior.

The document takes its title from Romans 11:29. “The gifts and the calling of God” refers to the relationship of God and the Jewish people. The gifts named by St Paul in Romans 9:4 include the Covenants God made with Israel. St Pope John Paul II famously stated in Mainz in 1980 that the ‘Old Covenant’ has never been revoked by God. (Paras. 27, 32 and 39)

TheGifts_and_theCallingofGod_are_Irrevocable_handout_2016apr12.pdf (scarboromissions.ca)
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Don't you think that implying that that gentle, loving lady, a caring mother, might go to Hell is really awful?
No - we all are capable of Evil - she could murder someone tomorrow.
And it would not be worthy of a pope.
I agree - if the Pope does something Evil - worthy of Hell - he should be removed from his position.
So do you really think he was serious?
If he believes in the Bible - then yes - he was serious.

Anyone can go to Hell.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
I understand.:)
But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below. Google Chrome can translate them.
It will show that so many Italian Catholics are really shocked by that sentence.
As I am.
I am shocked because Evil and Good are so far away from one another.
It seems like the Pope confuses them
Maybe you guys need to get better acquainted with the Bible.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
I am not denying that there is no salvation 'outside' of Christ, but non- Christians are saved without acknowledging Christ as their savior.
Impossible - the verse in Revelation I quoted clearly state that all Mankind will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Lord.
The document takes its title from Romans 11:29. “The gifts and the calling of God” refers to the relationship of God and the Jewish people. The gifts named by St Paul in Romans 9:4 include the Covenants God made with Israel. St Pope John Paul II famously stated in Mainz in 1980 that the ‘Old Covenant’ has never been revoked by God. (Paras. 27, 32 and 39)

TheGifts_and_theCallingofGod_are_Irrevocable_handout_2016apr12.pdf (scarboromissions.ca)
Yet - as a Christian - you would need to claim that the Jewish nation killed their God - the Being that they covenanted with in the first place.

The same covenants made to the Jews are extended to Christians by way of adoption - and if the Jews do not accept Christ as their God - they are breaking their covenants.

They can indeed still receive salvation - but they must recognize who their God is first.
 
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