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Bergoglio said: see you in Hell, maybe

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Well...no.
You need both.
Meaning that faith is not sufficient. Especially if you are a hitman or a murderer.
But - that isn't what you said.

You said that "every just and good person is entitled to salvation."

That is not accurate - you need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - that is the very barest of minimums.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
..... and at the soon coming Time of Separation ' to take place on Earth it is 'King Jesus' who does the judging.

This proverb or parable is taken from apprenticeship in a trade: the activity of a son is modeled on that of his father. Jesus’ dependence on the Father is justification for doing what the Father does. Jn 5:19. Jesus is carrying out the Father's judgement?
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
But - that isn't what you said.

You said that "every just and good person is entitled to salvation."

That is not accurate - you need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - that is the very barest of minimums.

What does it mean to have faith? So many sinners have faith in Lord Jesus Christ.
Christianity is not about passively believing Jesus' sacrifice saves us, regardless of what sins we commit.
Christianity is the active search for justice and truth.
And justice and truth are achieved through pursuing the common good and not selfish desires.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
What does it mean to have faith? So many sinners have faith in Lord Jesus Christ.
Christianity is not about passively believing Jesus' sacrifice saves us, regardless of what sins we commit.
Christianity is the active search for justice and truth.
And justice and truth are achieved through pursuing the common good and not selfish desires.
I agree with everything you just said - but being "good" isn't enough to be saved according to the Catholic Church - you must also have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - that is the barest minimum.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Not accurate - they believe that you must have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.
Nope.

Logically, if that were to be the case, anyone living before Jesus' time or in an area whereas they wouldn't have exposure to basic Christain teachings could not be saved. This is not what the Church teaches.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I agree with everything you just said - but being "good" isn't enough to be saved according to the Catholic Church - you must also have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - that is the barest minimum.
Here:
Non-Catholics can be saved, as the Church affirms (CCC 846-48), but we should not presume that this will necessarily happen, lest we fall into the sin of religious indifferentism. Regarding the level of their purgation, God will judge in a mercifully just way in each person’s case (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15)... -- The Salvation of Non-Catholics | Catholic Answers
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
Nope.

Logically, if that were to be the case, anyone living before Jesus' time or in an area whereas they wouldn't have exposure to basic Christain teachings could not be saved. This is not what the Church teaches.
What exactly does the Church teach then?

People do not need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?
Here:
Non-Catholics can be saved, as the Church affirms (CCC 846-48), but we should not presume that this will necessarily happen, lest we fall into the sin of religious indifferentism. Regarding the level of their purgation, God will judge in a mercifully just way in each person’s case (cf. 1 Cor. 3:10-15)... -- The Salvation of Non-Catholics | Catholic Answers
https://www.catholic.com/qa/the-salvation-of-non-catholics
This is irrelevant since we were talking about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - not whether a person was Catholic or not.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Not according to the Catholic Church.

From this mystery of unity it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Christians know this through their faith, while others remain unaware that Jesus Christ is the source of their salvation. The mystery of salvation reaches out to them, in a way known to God, through the invisible action of the Spirit of Christ. Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their saviour (cf. AG 3,9,11).
DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION: (vatican.va)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What exactly does the Church teach then?

People do not need to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved?
The Catechism states that a person can only be held responsible for what they've been made aware of. Thus, why would God refuse a person who never even heard of Jesus?
This is irrelevant since we were talking about faith in the Lord Jesus Christ - not whether a person was Catholic or not.
Because that's what it says in general, thus the same teaching applies.

IMO, let God do the judging.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
From this mystery of unity it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through his Spirit. Christians know this through their faith, while others remain unaware that Jesus Christ is the source of their salvation. The mystery of salvation reaches out to them, in a way known to God, through the invisible action of the Spirit of Christ. Concretely, it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their saviour (cf. AG 3,9,11).
DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION: (vatican.va)
I don't believe this is saying what you believe it is saying.

I understand what it sounds like - that no one needs to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to receive salvation - they do not need to recognize or acknowledge Him at all to receive salvation.

Let me quote a later portion of this same reflection,

"35. Religious traditions and the Church

To the Church, as the sacrament in which the Kingdom of God is present "in mystery", are related or oriented (ordinantur) (cf. LG 16) the members of other religious traditions who, inasmuch as they respond to God's calling as perceived by their conscience, are saved in Jesus Christ and thus already share in some way in the reality which is signified by the Kingdom. The Church's mission is to foster "the Kingdom of our Lord and his Christ" (Rv 11:15), at whose service she is placed. Part of her role consists in recognizing that the inchoate reality of this Kingdom can be found also beyond the confines of the Church, for example in the hearts of the followers of other religious traditions, insofar as they live evangelical values and are open to the action of the Spirit. It must be remembered nevertheless that this is indeed an inchoate reality, which needs to find completion through being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church yet realized fully only in the world to come."

So - in summary - the Catholic Church recognizes that God is working throughout the world through the ministrations of the Holy Spirit - not just in the Catholic Church.

Even though the "inchoate reality" - meaning "not fully formed or completed" reality - of God's Kingdom does exist on Earth - it only finds "completion" through "being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church" and is only fully realized "in the world to come".

Meaning - those who do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ during mortality on Earth can only find salvation - entrance into God's Kingdom - after they have become "related" to the Kingdom of Christ - which will be fully realized in the world to come.

It is basically as Paul said in his epistle to the saints in Philippi,

"Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2:9-11)

No one receives salvation until they bow and confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord.

So - according to the Catholic Church - all Mankind can be saved - if they accept this "invitation" from God.

They will "respond positively" to this "invitation" if they are "sincere" and "practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their conscience".

If they have done this - which is following the Holy Spirit - they "already share in some way in the reality which is signified by the Kingdom".

However - this reality is "inchoate" - and they can only find a "completion" by "being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church" and is only fully realized "in the world to come".

This "full realization" comes after they accept God's "invitation" which to bow down and confess that Jesus Christ is the Lord - then they receive salvation.

It is better to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in this life - but all of Mankind will be required to do so in the next - and if they were sincere in this life they will accept this "invitation" of God.

The Catholic Church teaches that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation.

It is better to do so in this life - but the sincere can do so in the next life - but it is a requirement nonetheless.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The Catholic Church teaches that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation.
As I posted befoe, that's not what the Catechism says and I posted a link to that.

If what your post above was exactly what the Church taught was true, I'd leave in a heartbeat. And also Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that it is not our role to judge.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
I don't believe this is saying what you believe it is saying.

The council confirmed the theological teaching that God, who is the salvation of
all human beings (1 Tm. 2:4), shows the way to salvation to those who, through
no fault of their own, do not know Jesus Christ but, moved by grace, try in
their actions to do God's will as they know it through the dictates of their
conscience (Lumen Gentium, 16: cf. Gaudium et Spes, 22).
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The council confirmed the theological teaching that God, who is the salvation of all human beings (1 Tm. 2:4), shows the way to salvation to those who, through
no fault of their own, do not know Jesus Christ but, moved by grace, try in
their actions to do God's will as they know it through the dictates of their
conscience (Lumen Gentium, 16: cf. Gaudium et Spes, 22).
Salvation " IF " we walk ...... according to 1st John 1:7
This is why Jesus' ransom coves MANY and does Not say ALL at Matthew 20:28
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
As I posted befoe, that's not what the Catechism says and I posted a link to that.

If what your post above was exactly what the Church taught was true, I'd leave in a heartbeat. And also Pope Francis has made it abundantly clear that it is not our role to judge.
What are you talking about?

No one on Earth can judge whether a person has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is between the person and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You understand that what you quoted claims that people of other religions need to go through a period of "purgation"?

What the other RF member and I quoted from explicitly claims that people can accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the next life.

As long as you are a "good" and "honest" person in this life - lively your religion "sincerely" - the Catholic Church believes that you will accept God's invitation in the next life - after they are cleansed from sin.

What I said does not disagree with what you have said.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
The council confirmed the theological teaching that God, who is the salvation of
all human beings (1 Tm. 2:4), shows the way to salvation to those who, through
no fault of their own, do not know Jesus Christ but, moved by grace, try in
their actions to do God's will as they know it through the dictates of their
conscience (Lumen Gentium, 16: cf. Gaudium et Spes, 22).
Yes - God shows them the way to salvation - and the Way is the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)
 
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