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Featured Bergoglio said: see you in Hell, maybe

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Estro Felino, May 23, 2022.

  1. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    There are pro's and con's concerning the translation. Ratzinger chose 'for the many', it was closer to the Latin and the Septuagint.
    Why in the new translation of the Mass does the priest say "for many" instead of "for all”? - Catholic Straight Answers

    Benedict XVI: “For Many” means “For All” (traditioninaction.org)
     
  2. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    For Christians
     
  3. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The above is not at all what I said nor implied.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    By the way...if the Pope was joking ...you know...dark humor...
    all this doctrinal discussion is useless...I think...with all due respect.

    The point of this thread is: can a Pope make that kind of jokes in that kind of situations?
     
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  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find in the Catholic Douay at Matthew 20:28 reads 'ransom for MANY '
    It does Not say ALL because Not ALL chose to 'walk with Jesus' - 1 John 1:7 (" IF "we walk....)
    To me the ' pro ' is to 'repent', and the ' con ' is without repenting one will ' perish ' (be destroyed) - 2 Peter 3:9
     
  6. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    It's funny how insightful that is.

    You need to climb to get to Heaven - requires effort - yet Hell is very easy to get to.
     
  7. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    What?

    Did you even read from that Dialogue and Proclamation you quoted from?

    It clearly said that non-Christians would receive the "invitation" from God that leads to salvation.

    And that is the Lord Jesus Christ. I will quote this sentence to you again,

    "It must be remembered nevertheless that this is indeed an inchoate reality, which needs to find completion through being related to the Kingdom of Christ already present in the Church yet realized fully only in the world to come."
     
  8. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    You said that you would leave the Church if it taught that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation.

    Then you said that such a teaching was us "judging" others somehow.

    The Catholic Church teaches that all Mankind needs to accept and have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in order to receive salvation - this is fact.

    We can do this in mortal life - or we can wait until after our period of "purgation" in the next life - but it needs to happen, or we will not be saved.

    No man comes to the Father but by the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
  9. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe he was joking - I believe he was trying to be modest and teach the correct principle that our salvation is not assured.
     
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  10. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Don't you think that implying that that gentle, loving lady, a caring mother, might go to Hell is really awful?
    And it would not be worthy of a pope.
    So do you really think he was serious?
     
  11. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    I'm with @Fallen Prophet on this one (though it feels strange, given how much we differ on other things). As I said before, the Pope's comment is in accord with the teachings of the RCC and I think he was serious and humble.
     
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  12. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I understand.:)
    But it would be useful if you guys took a look at the Italian comments below. Google Chrome can translate them.
    It will show that so many Italian Catholics are really shocked by that sentence.
    As I am.
    I am shocked because Evil and Good are so far away from one another.
    It seems like the Pope confuses them
     
  13. Heyo

    Heyo Veteran Member

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    Maybe many Italian Catholics aren't really informed about what their doctrine on salvation says? Even the Pope doesn't have a guaranteed place in heaven. He knows that and is humble enough to recognize it.
    (Maybe he did punch someone in the nose for insulting his mother?)
     
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  14. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    But we cannot read his mind. So you assume that he was not joking.
    I too can have my personal opinion on that sentence. If he was serious, then I can assume he said that because he is aware he is a wicked man, allied to other wicked powerful men who rule Europe. And that he is aware he will go to Hell.
    But that is an assumption of mine, because he was joking, surely.

    PS: Catholics believe Hell is for the wicked. The just who are sinful will go to Purgatory. The just who are sinless will go straight to Heaven.
    There are no Christians and non-Christians. There are the wicked (also Christians) and there are the just (also atheists).
     
  15. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    I am not denying that there is no salvation 'outside' of Christ, but non- Christians are saved without acknowledging Christ as their savior.

    The document takes its title from Romans 11:29. “The gifts and the calling of God” refers to the relationship of God and the Jewish people. The gifts named by St Paul in Romans 9:4 include the Covenants God made with Israel. St Pope John Paul II famously stated in Mainz in 1980 that the ‘Old Covenant’ has never been revoked by God. (Paras. 27, 32 and 39)

    TheGifts_and_theCallingofGod_are_Irrevocable_handout_2016apr12.pdf (scarboromissions.ca)
     
  16. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    So far the only thing I see us disagreeing on is when an "abortion" should be illegal.
     
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  17. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    No - we all are capable of Evil - she could murder someone tomorrow.
    I agree - if the Pope does something Evil - worthy of Hell - he should be removed from his position.
    If he believes in the Bible - then yes - he was serious.

    Anyone can go to Hell.
     
  18. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you guys need to get better acquainted with the Bible.
     
  19. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    "you guys".
    May I know what your denomination is?
     
  20. Fallen Prophet

    Fallen Prophet Well-Known Member

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    Impossible - the verse in Revelation I quoted clearly state that all Mankind will bow down and confess that Jesus is the Lord.
    Yet - as a Christian - you would need to claim that the Jewish nation killed their God - the Being that they covenanted with in the first place.

    The same covenants made to the Jews are extended to Christians by way of adoption - and if the Jews do not accept Christ as their God - they are breaking their covenants.

    They can indeed still receive salvation - but they must recognize who their God is first.
     
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