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Featured Berachos 6a.

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by John D. Brey, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Berachos 6a implies, with Deuteronomy 28:10, that throughout the world, God's chosen will evangelize the world concerning the Word of God. This global evangelism is directly related to a sacerdotal ornament. Is that ornament the shel rosh, or the crucifix?


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    John
     
  2. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Then you don't understand Berachot 6a. Not only is there nothing about evangelizing, but the text says explicitly what it IS talking about in terms of the "ornament."

    ומנין שהתפילין עוז הם לישראל דכתי' (דברים כח) וראו כל עמי הארץ כי שם ה' נקרא עליך ויראו ממך ותניא ר' אליעזר הגדול אומר אלו תפילין שבראש
     
  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I think we both know that he didn't come here to give over an accurate reading of...anything really.
     
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  4. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    The prophet Isaiah has quite a bit to say about this ornament. And according to him, and Berachos 6a, the peoples of the world will see the ornament and relate it to God blessing with great power and awe those who wear it. I've never seen anyone wearing the shel rosh while lifting a Superbowl trophy or receiving a Gold Medal at the Olympics. I've never seen a military general being praised for a great victory wearing the shel rosh?

    I've never seen anyone wearing a shel rosh in a manner that suggested awe, or great divine favor?


    John
     
  5. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's not what it says. Your ability to interpolate still knows no bounds.
     
  6. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    If those were things that the text was talking about then maybe your mentioning them would be relevant. You need to go back to the text and actually consider IT, not what you want to think about.
     
  7. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Imo, the first step is to accept that it's subject to interpretation.



    John
     
  8. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Arise, shine; for thy light is come,
    And the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee.
    2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
    And gross darkness the people:
    But the LORD shall arise upon thee,
    And his glory shall be seen upon thee.
    3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light,
    And kings to the brightness of thy rising.​

    Does Isaiah 60:1-3 sound like it's talking about the black box associated with the shel rosh? Or perhaps a diamond embellished golden cross shining forth from between the breast (where tiferet is found on the sefirotic tree)? Darkness covers the people who don't have the Lord rising upon them. Light shines forth from those upon whom the the light has come.

    Every sefirah on the sefirotic tree represents a living part of Adam Kadmon except one. Tiferet תפארת is an ornament of "glory" worn by Adam Kadmon. And it's worn not on the head, but between the breast.


    John
     
    #8 John D. Brey, Oct 25, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  9. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    No, the first step is to learn the difference between interpretation and interpolation.
     
  10. rosends

    rosends Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it doesn't sound like it is talking about either of those. Why do you make that connection? Have you read the Malbim?
    אור הישועה הגופנית והנפשיית בא לך

    or the Radak

    וכבר פירשנו כי האורה משל על השמחה ועל הטובה, והחשך בהפכו על הצרה ועל הרעה שיבא

    and הגיע זמן ישועתך שהוא לך אורה גדולה, וכפל הענין ואמר וכבוד ה' עליך זרח, וכן תרגם יונתן ארי מטא זמן פורקנך

    I mean this is basic stuff.
     
  11. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Interpretation is impossible without interpolation. Exegesis is impossible without some eisegesis. We all put something of our own epistemological biases into every interpretation we do. This isn't a problem. The problem is the misplaced belief that producing meaning from a text can occur without infusing the text with some of our own memetic chromosomes.


    John
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    What your saying is, we all sometimes need to add in our own experience to a text in order to be able to relate to it. But you're taking it a step further and saying, since you need to add in your own experience, that amount of addition is only limited by your imagination. It's like, since you need to use a vessel to get water to your mouth, there's not really any difference between using a cup and bucket. That's not how you study a text. Or if it is, then you've got a serious problem.
     
  13. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . The idea is, imo, to move beyond the basics and take advantage of the rich tradition the sages have left us. In my opinion they're more like guideposts than destinations. ------We're not there yet.


    John
     
  14. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    Scientists, with Sartre, imply that we mostly find what we're looking for. If we're looking to justify Jewish tradition, we find ample justification in the text of the Tanakh. And yet there are always those pesky anomalies that imply we might be missing something, or else are somewhat off track. If our criteria of truth is the tradition we read into the text, then anomalies, like bones in a serving of fish, are just set aside.

    The Talmud is one of the most beautiful products of human history. The writers don't just set anomalies to the side. They think about them. Reason about them. Wonder about them. And imply that the picture is yet to be clarified. The talmudic sages aren't afraid to go down a road they've never gone down before. They realize that the tradition is, like any living thing, subject to revision, evolution, and even sometimes drastic upheaval.

    The spirit of a tradition, be it Judaism or Christianity, is not the spirit of truth. The tradition is the orthodoxy protecting the flock from the dangers of the frothy waters where the big fish are found. Only the greatest exegetical seamen should venture beyond the shores of orthodoxy. And only a captain who can walk on water (were his water-craft to sink) should venture out, with harpoon in hand, to approach the lair of the Leviathan.


    John
     
  15. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    And here ends the part where you're right.

    No. This is all wrong.

    Eloquent, but no.
     
  16. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    When the Roman's destroyed the temple, Judaism survived and adapted to life without the temple. When Jesus of Nazareth is realized to be Messiah, Judaism will survive and adapt to this even greater epistemological upheaval.


    John
     
  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Adapted, yes. Revised, no.

    This comment isn't even worth the data you expended to post it.
     
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  18. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . Most of the commentary I've read suggests revision, since without the temple it's impossible to function in the unrevised manner. Most of the original religion requires the temple and the priesthood. Without the temple and the priesthood some fairly serious revision must take place. And history suggests it did.

    Take the tallit for example. According to the Torah, it must have teheleth. And yet after the destruction of the temple, the key to the production of teheleth was lost. So what do the Jewish authorities do? They revise the Torah. Now you can wear a prayer shawl without teheleth.

    What's the line of demarcation between "revision" versus "adaptation"?


    John
     
    #18 John D. Brey, Oct 29, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2017
  19. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    That's ridiculous. By that logic, the second the first Jew lost his parents, the Torah should have needed revision because it was impossible for him to follow the Law to honor his parents.

    There's no revision. There are Law that are applicable to our situation and Laws that are not applicable to our situation. That's all.

    No, you're just bad at critical reading. Num. 15:38 has two different commandments:
    "(1) and they shall make for themselves tzitzis on the corners of their garments for generations; (2) and they shall put on the tzitzis of the corner a blue thread"
    "Blue thread" is an addition to tzitzis not an integral part of it otherwise it would say "and you shall make tzitzs of a blue thread" or "and you shall place on the tassels, a blue string and it shall be tzitzis". It wouldn't start off calling them tzitzis and then tell you to add the blue string because that implies that they are two separate things. Which they are. Since they are two separate commandments, when we can't do (2) doesn't mean (1) gets tossed out the window. This is simple reading.
     
  20. John D. Brey

    John D. Brey Well-Known Member

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    . . . I agree with Rabbi Samson Hirsch that the tzitzit is the home of the techelet. The techelet is the soul and or spirit of the tzitzit. Without the techelet, the tzitzit is like a body without a soul; perhaps a golem. Or in a more derogatory sense, a zombi: neither alive nor dead; like a Torah-text with no oral spirit. A dead-letter not technically dead. But definitely not alive.


    John
     
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