1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured "Believing in God in itself doesn't make a person irrational. "?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by paarsurrey, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. InvestigateTruth

    InvestigateTruth Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,003
    Ratings:
    +1,588
    Religion:
    Baha'i
    I understand your intention is good. I hope it was that simple. The Muslims all believe in a God, with the name of Allah. That doesnt seem to me do them any good, they are not united, and Muslim nations are at war or conflict with each other. The Jews believe in God. That doesnt cause peace with Palestinians who also believe in One God. So, it doesnt seem to me, believing in God necessarily help humanity. Why?
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  2. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    17,430
    Ratings:
    +2,004
    There is no compulsion in turning to G-d,please.

    Regards
     
  3. ClimbingTheLadder

    ClimbingTheLadder Up and Down again

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Ratings:
    +96
    Religion:
    The Wheel of Things
    By this you mean to say that Allah is "God" in arabic, right? cause it is. "Allah" is not the "name" of God in Islam, it is the word which literally means "God".
     
  4. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,434
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Billions of people who claim to believe in God are irrational I believe because they follow blindly instead of using their own minds, which is irrational. Whenever they are not sure of something they ask priests or scholars who are often wrong and so have also have irrational views.

    One example. Christians dont accept Prophet Muhammad because their priests tell them He is a false prophet which I believe is irrational because Muhammad is prophesied in both the Old and New Testament.

    So believing in God can be very irrational if people are blindly imitating tradition or what priests tell them.

    We have each been given a mind to find truth for ourselves not to blindly copy and follow others. This is my humble opinion only.
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  5. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    17,430
    Ratings:
    +2,004
    Did I say that one should believe blindly, please?
    One should believe with wisdom. Right, please?

    Regards
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    17,430
    Ratings:
    +2,004
    Allah whose attributes have been mentioned in Quran elaborately. Right, please?

    Regards
     
  7. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,434
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    Yes definitely. But many believe in God blindly not truly. That is my humble opinion.

    Otherwise how do we explain the condition of society? If people truly believed in God there would be no poverty and there would be world peace but despite billions of religious people who believe in God we have neither peace nor prosperity for the poor?

    What’s the point of belief in God if it is not acted upon?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,274
    Ratings:
    +1,562
    Religion:
    My Own
    Belief in God is more an experience of the presence of something greater than yourself. People usually have the feeling with beauty nature or brief moments of peak experiences in our lives. I had a really good one skiing really fast through a grove of pine trees with the sun at the perfect angle down the slope at my back. It was a brief moment where it felt like time stopped and my skiing was effortless and I just felt perfection.

    I don't consider belief in God to be decision based on reasons. If it were, then it would rational or irrational based on the reasons. For me, having a belief in God is a choice. A true choice meaning a choice not made based on any reasons. For me, my choice to belief in God is a leap from non-belief. There's nothing between the two for me. I just feel there's something greater than myself sharing my experiences.
     
  9. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,434
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    True but in turning to Him only in words and not deeds is useless and pointless I feel because belief in God should make us all servants of each other and humanity. If belief in God doesn’t create love and peace amongst people then is it true belief?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. lewisnotmiller

    lewisnotmiller Grand Hat
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    16,563
    Ratings:
    +8,805
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Not for me, mate. Can't make myself believe, and even if I could, this current crisis would raise more theological questions than it answers, for me.
     
  11. dfnj

    dfnj Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2017
    Messages:
    3,274
    Ratings:
    +1,562
    Religion:
    My Own
    To explain the condition of society I'm going to go with people do not have omnipotent powers to solve all their problems.

    Instead, people are full of shortcomings and imperfections which act like excessive gravity. Just having a belief in God is not going to solve anything. Nor is becoming a member of the Jesus fan club. Or saying magic ritual words. Solving our problems is going to take hard work. The thing is there will always be problems no matter how hard we work. Life is never perfect. Only God is perfect, whole, complete without any needs or desires.

    I think having an expectation of people being as perfect as God is going too far. I think people are just fine the way they are. Yes, the World has problems. There will always be problems. People are doing pretty good job in spite of all their imperfections. Just consider healthcare workers dealing with the corona virus! My God, such heroism brings me to tears!

    The point of having a belief in God is for having enthusiasm in spite of all our imperfections and shortcomings. I tend to be in the camp God is more an experience than a belief. We have God experiences when see greatness in nature, in ourselves, in others, and in great performances. When an athlete has a great performance we say he was "god-like" or he is a "god". Greatness is a conduit for us to experience slivers of the perfection that is God. We are all drawn to experience the perfection that is God. God draws us to Him when we experience the beauty of flowers, happiness of a puppy, the curves of a woman's body, and babies. Some things are sacred. God give us purpose.

    My question to you would be why would anyone choose to have a set of beliefs resulting in feelings of nihilism as if they had evidence supporting the conclusion life is meaningless?
     
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
  12. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,367
    Ratings:
    +460
    Religion:
    Follower (and Writer) of the Mune Shinri
    HonestJoe is a loser. Just because someone votes him a winner doesn't make him a winner.

    Atheism is irrational.

    Atheism Is Irrational

    Note the source. A psychiatrist, which is a reliable authority for two reasons
    1. They tend not to have bias in favor or religion
    2. They tend to be experts on the mind and what constitutes rational behavior.

    They clarify to say that there are certain types of atheism that are rational but what is called Gnostic Atheism ("we know there is no God") is irrational.

    But I will expand this to include all atheism, aside from agnosticism. Why? Well...
    1. An agnostic claims to not know for certain about religion, while an atheist claims to not believe in God but if often closer to an antitheist.
    2. In fact, an atheist cannot consistently decide anything about itself. Is it a religion or not? Well, the answer seems to be "when it's convenient." It's a religion when such discussions are that only religions are allowed to debate, but it's not when it wants to claim that religions have special priorities that atheism doesn't have. Or when atheism pretends to be "scientific." In actual fact, despite claiming it is not religious, it has official dogma (stuff like climate change, Darwinian evolution, etc) and punishments for adherents opposing the official views. It has clerics (mostly men in white coats or military uniforms). It has sacred scripture, of sorts. It claims to be religious and then supports big government and secular politics.
    3. It claims to be on the side of science, but when used to oppose the notion of God, it willfully dismisses laws of science when they no longer are convenient. So "matter cannot be created or destroyed" except when it comes to the Big Bang, then it can just do whatever it wants. Or we have evolution, only in every case where society tried to impose a survival of the fittest model, it has been a tyranny, and its days are number.
    4. The idea of atheism is inherently irrational. Anything that exists comes from an origin, and there are no known exceptions to this. While the idea of a old man may not be how things went down, every rock comes from igneous/sedimentary/metamorphic causes, every tree comes from a seed, every chicken from an egg, every rain/snow from water condensation, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc! And yet, an atheist wants to spin a fairy tale where the universe has no origin (aside from a laws of nature explanation, which fails immediately because of this):
    God vs. Atheism: Which is More Rational?

    You see, the problem of Big Bang, which was originally proposed by a scientist named Lemaitre who was also a theologian (then Stephen Hawking takes credit for it, and everyone decides he's brilliant rather than a crippled bitter old man) is that tbh the entire theory cannot work without the existence of God. Why is that? Well, we have a series of scientific laws that don't exist until after the universe does (since such a thing as magnetism is meaningless if there is no matter and especially no metal to interact with), but a universe that cannot exist without the aid of such forces. So one or the other had to come into play first, but without a third part to this equation, it would be locked forever in a Mexican standoff.

    5. The Bible says that the unbelievers are under a "powerful delusion." I know this to be true for certain, as I've seen atheists reject pages and pages of information contrary to their opinions, and they simply ignore this to continue saying what they think is true. There is evidence in the scientific world to disprove atheism. There is evidence in the natural world. There is evidence in observed coincidence, and in the change in people's lives. There is evidence in history, since despite clever plans, dictatorships have always fallen.
    6. During this disease hysteria, the least fearful have been (real) theists, who insisted that it's just a bug going around, and it's fairly mild. The atheists I've talked to ignore completely any reasoned attempts to convince them that hoarding and job loss caused by an extreme fear reaction are at least as dangerous, deciding to literally buy 50 rolls of toilet paper and collapse the supply chain. One of these people is able to get back to life as normal, they other wants to completely upend modern society because they can't deal with something that isn't even in their area yet.

    If we were to describe this delusion, it would be a pervasive sense that human beings are alone and cannot trust each other, that the church is out to judge people, and that there is no God yet believers are telling atheists they are damned (dude: pick - either you don't believe in God and therefore what believers believe is not a concern, or you do believe in God in which case God forgives sins). That the state as a cult is to be revered, and that death has final say yet life somehow has purpose if that is the case (if death has the final say, then life has no purpose because nothing you create will last).
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  13. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    7,434
    Ratings:
    +3,526
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith

    I think having a belief in God gives meaning in ones life but alone without ‘hard work’ as you mentioned is of little value to society as a whole.

    Trying, striving and hard work are definite paths to peace and prosperity for the poor.

    I believe the choicest fruit of any belief in God are our deeds and actions to serve humanity. Tyere are a lot of wonderful people doing this already but the reason religions fight and go to war with each other and do not promote tolerance? More hard work I believe needs to be done by religionists to tolerate each other and become more like a family than competitors.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. ClimbingTheLadder

    ClimbingTheLadder Up and Down again

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Ratings:
    +96
    Religion:
    The Wheel of Things
    Yes
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  15. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Love is patient. Love is kind.

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    26,190
    Ratings:
    +8,659
    Paarsurrey. Wouldn't it be better if people go to their own source of faith or morals with or without god(s) during this time? Pagan go to their gods. Etc etc.

    If people are panicking, wouldn't it make sense to go to their own source(s)?
     
  16. Heyo

    Heyo Well-Known Member
    It's My Birthday!

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2019
    Messages:
    2,187
    Ratings:
    +1,773
    Religion:
    none
    Believing in gods is always irrational, more or less, depending on what you believe gods are or do.

    Why?
    There is no evidence for any god I've heard of imagined by people. For some of those fantasies there is evidence hat they can't possibly exist.

    Does it matter that god beliefs are irrational?
    No. People have all kinds of irrational beliefs. Ghosts, astrology, homeopathy, conspiracy theories, you name it. It only becomes a problem when irrational or detrimental actions result from the irrational belief.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    3,683
    Ratings:
    +468
    Religion:
    None
    Believing that something just popped out of Utter Nothing for no
    reason whatsoever....... is irrational.
    Remember, science says there are no miracles and every event
    must have a natural cause, and there is a reason for everything.
     
    #37 PruePhillip, Mar 28, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  18. Mock Turtle

    Mock Turtle Compassion, understanding, and tolerance.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2018
    Messages:
    5,185
    Ratings:
    +2,225
    Religion:
    Often the quickest path from ignorance to arrogance
    I think our experiences of all these things, and more no doubt, can be explained quite satisfactorily without any need for God being in the mix. And if we did understand how human life, and all other life, is so unique and wonderful in so many ways - along with all the negative bits too - then we might get on better with each other and treat our world and co-inhabitants a lot better. It seems to me that it is in our conflicting nature that so many problems arise - just too easy to see others in 'some other group' when we are all basically the same, although our various innate differences and needs does tend to pull us apart anyway.

    For me, our ability to set our own purpose in life is the one true freedom we have, although usually we all do have constraints and often set by where we are born and to whom. It might be fine if all had some purpose united by some universal belief but this is not so, and probably never will be so, such that perhaps a common purpose in recognising that unless we all do become more agreeable and less selfish we have a good chance of really messing up our existence on Earth and for all other life.
     
  19. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,326
    Ratings:
    +522
    Religion:
    The Wrong One
    Well, I have learned to be so rational at times, that I can spot I am irrational as believing in something irrational. I then check the consequences and so on and if it is not a big deal and works as "good" in some sense, I stay irrational.
    So I am in a weird sense rational about being irrational. :D

    Regards
    Mikkel
     
  20. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,326
    Ratings:
    +522
    Religion:
    The Wrong One
    But that has a limit.
    Science has limits: A few things that science does not do

    You are doing metaphysics and not science.

    Regards
    Mikkel
     
Loading...