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Featured Believing A Lie

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by ThirtyThree, Jun 11, 2016.

  1. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    Recently I was told a lie. It was made clear to me that this was a lie. I was then told to believe the lie. I argued for some time, expressing my disdain for the command. The order was repeated, I hesitated further and then set out to comply with the command.

    The result as of this morning is I now believe the lie. The curious thing, I know it to be a lie. The issue this created can be illustrated by the following example:

    Your deity gives you a piece of paper with typing on it. They then tell you the entire thing was written by a pen, which they also give you. Obviously, the the print on the paper was typed. It is obvious to you. However, you are told to believe the absurdity presented. Now, your deity tells you that they are having you believe a lie.

    Most would abandon such a deity. Others would refuse the order. Some would make an attempt.

    The issue is this. Suppose you believe everything the deity tells you, always, based on trust. The deity makes it clear this is a lie. Therefore, you know it is a lie. You then believe the lie. You are then told, once more it is a lie. Do you now argue with your deity over the matter not being a lie, or do you believe the matter is a lie, while accepting the lie as truth?

    It is a complex bit of philosophy and having recently succeeded at this, I have come to see the immediate value. Not only did I break a major personal taboo, I also managed to alter my mind state. Just, the philosophy of this is complex to me still. How am I knowing something is a lie, believing the lie, yet not arguing that the lie is now truth? It is as if now, I believe both to be true and false at the same time.
     
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  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Nonsense.
     
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  3. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    How is it nonsense?
     
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  4. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    :facepalm:
     
  5. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    Try to debate?
     
  6. idav

    idav Being
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    Cognitive dissonance.
     
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  7. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What would you like to debate?
     
  8. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    The topic? Your face palm was hardly debate.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I want to think more on this. My first impulse is, what is the value of the lie?
     
  10. RedDragon94

    RedDragon94 Lectio Divina

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    This was made clear how?
    Is it possible that there is a hidden meaning in the lie?
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Your OP was little more than adolescent word-play and hardly a debatable topic.
     
  12. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    Suppose a deity tells a believer a lie, he knows its a lie, but no matter how much he hears it, he (not you) accept it is the truth. Should he question his deity about why he is asked to accept a lie or continue to accept it as truth? Why or why not?

    Is it important to you? If so, why if not why?

    That type of thing. That's the debate. Share your thoughts.
     
  13. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    The lie, which I have not shared here, allowed me to get beyond my ego. It also taught me a useful skill in regard to being more believable when I do tell a lie.
     
  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    The deity makes it clear that WHAT is a lie? "This"? Ambiguous. All you said before the third sentence above is that you believe everything the deity tells you, based on trust. Then you say "The deity makes it clear this is a lie." My question is, what? Everything the deity ever told you? And if it is made clear that it is a lie, then why go about the business of believing the lie? Your fifth sentence above is asinine. "You then believe the lie." is missing the basic component of answering "why?" Just because it was told to you by your deity? Good for you, I guess? And why is it that so many people find such difficulty in arguing with their supposed deities? I mean seriously? What possible repercussions are there? I ask you.
     
  15. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    It was made clear in that my deity told me, point blank, He was telling me a lie. He then ordered me to believe it.

    Yes, there is possibly hidden meaning in the lie I was told to believe.
     
  16. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    Again, I have not specified what the lie was. I do not believe I need to for this debate. However, the lie was very specific, and no, it did not regard everything He has told me. It actually deals with something in the realm of science.
     
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  17. idav

    idav Being
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    Really depends on the lie, when speaking of spiritual truth vs spiritual lie, I feel like these are more like perceptions, like "seriously look at it from this angle for a second" and god can be looking of a paradigm shift.
     
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  18. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I think it starts with what is the value of a lie. Does it cause harm to believe a lie is the truth?
    I don't know about other deity-oriented religions, but I know Christians don't consider anything a lie from their deity. So, the question is irrelevant. Since we are asking "what if" I'd assume they won't question but just follow the lie as if it were the truth based on the experiences this lie gives them in relation to their god, environment, and self.
    Well, you aren't believing in the truth just what is purposed to be the truth. So you are living a lie perceived as the truth rather than both at the same time.

    It also has to do with whether the believer acknowledges what lies are, how he defines it, and whether, he feels lies can be told by anyone, deities included.

    If one isn't incapable of lying, then if they did lie theoretically, to the believer, they'd never see it that way. It's harder to answer the question.

    I hope some try though.
     
  19. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

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    I mean, if the deity tells the believer a lie, what value does it have to the believer that he (the believer) needs to question the deity about it?
     
  20. ThirtyThree

    ThirtyThree Well-Known Member

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    This lie is not harmful, unless one actually started spreading it around as truth, which some already do. I was given strict instructions not to discuss it publicly (as truth), however.
     
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