Believe the "first resurrection" of Christ's Millenial reign has not happened?

[ecco]

I’m not asking people to believe in the stories.

I was engaging in a hypothetical thought experiment to try and determine if a certain reading of the stories is internally consistent or not.

Oh, is that what you were doing.

 

[cataway]

This is what I have to go by.
15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,4 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

ah ,then in your thinking all that would be selected to be part of the first resurrections must all be dead and in the grave waiting ,as it were , to be resurrected . and then off to heaven with those that have not yet died .
but since the presents of Jesus has happened and Jesus is ruling as king. what makes you think that those that are to be resurrected first have not already been resurrected and taken to heaven ?

 

[Muffled]

Cronology of the resurrection of the unrighteous

Note: All text is taken from the NIV translation for ease of understanding.

This post is aimed at those who believe the "first resurrection" of Christs millenial reign has not happened.

So in Revelation 1 it says,

"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

The opening makes it sound like these events are on the verge of happening, not about to happen in thousands of years, but I digress before I have even begun.

Revelation 1:7 says regarding Christ;
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

It occurred to me that perhaps the only way this could happen (since those who pierced Jesus have been dead for thousands of years) is if either (a)He came in the clouds while they were still alive which we know did not happen in a literal sense, or (b) those who pierced Him were to be resurected before He descends from the clouds.

But in Revelation 20 It appears to explain that the "first resurrection" occurs of the righteous, who "came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Then it says, in Revelation 20:5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended." So presumably the unrighteous (whom I would be inclined to think includes those who "pierced" Jesus, aren't resurected until well after Christ has touched down and reigned for a thousand years with the righteous. Hence the question, how did they who pierced Christ see Him "coming with the clouds" if they are dead during this period.

So play devil's (or the Bible's) advocate here, and explain to me my error (or just engage in mental gymnastics if I haven't comitted any error).

I believe in reincarnation so it is eminently possible for the same people to be present when He returns. I know Bahais love to make everything metaphorical but I don't see any grounds for it in those verses.

I believe one cold say as soldiers they were just doing their job so it is not the act that would make them unrighteous.

 

[Muffled]

yes you made an error . you went to the book of Revelation , a book that uses symbolic language and read it to be literal

I believe you are in error. The fact that there is a great deal of symbology does not mean that there is nothing literal.

 

[Muffled]

Ok sure..

well, I suppose you might relate this to way in which jesus seemed to judge people. He said things in the gospels, I think, about committing physical sins if you even think them. This goes back to the whole bit about 'tearing out your eye' and all that. Therefore, in that kind of mode of judgement, perhaps the onlookers would pierce him without actually doing it.

i believe that is pretty far fetched. At any rate it still doesn't answer the question of how they are alive to view the event.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe in reincarnation so it is eminently possible for the same people to be present when He returns. I know Bahais love to make everything metaphorical but I don't see any grounds for it in those verses.

I believe one cold say as soldiers they were just doing their job so it is not the act that would make them unrighteous.

I’m not a Baha’i as you are no doubt well aware.
Apart from that thanks for providing an unorthodox view that may possibly fit.

 

[Terry Sampson]

what makes you think that those that are to be resurrected first have not already been resurrected and taken to heaven ?

Because, if the first resurrection has already occurred and "the Little Flock" (i.e. the 144,000) have been given spirit bodies and are now in heaven, ruling somewhere in a spirit realm alongside Michael-Jesus or otherwise keeping busy until the second resurrection, then no JW, from the first resurrection on, can hope to be in anything more than a physical body among "the Great Crowd" on earth. Moreover, JWs who think they have been "chosen in a special way" and are, thereby, entitled to partake of the bread and wine at the annual JW Memorial Supper, are deluded or missed the first resurrection.

So, which is it? Has the first resurrection occurred and JWs haven't realized it? or is Michael-Jesus is still waiting until all of the 144,000 come along? BTW, how many years do you suppose a complete first resurrection took/takes/will take?

 

[cataway]

I believe in reincarnation so it is eminently possible for the same people to be present when He returns. I know Bahais love to make everything metaphorical but I don't see any grounds for it in those verses.

I believe one cold say as soldiers they were just doing their job so it is not the act that would make them unrighteous.

Because, if the first resurrection has already occurred and "the Little Flock" (i.e. the 144,000) have been given spirit bodies and are now in heaven, ruling somewhere in a spirit realm alongside Michael-Jesus or otherwise keeping busy until the second resurrection, then no JW, from the first resurrection on, can hope to be in anything more than a physical body among "the Great Crowd" on earth. Moreover, JWs who think they have been "chosen in a special way" and are, thereby, entitled to partake of the bread and wine at the annual JW Memorial Supper, are deluded or missed the first resurrection.

So, which is it? Has the first resurrection occurred and JWs haven't realized it? or is Michael-Jesus is still waiting until all of the 144,000 come along? BTW, how many years do you suppose a complete first resurrection took/takes/will take?

only the dead ones get a resurrection.

 

[rational experiences]

only the dead ones get a resurrection.

Do you realize why?

I saw the reason why when I was being brain chemically irradiated brain prickled burnt...like Jesus did...but not as bad.

As radiation is why the bio life cell, water oxygen bio microbial owner is dead.

I saw the spirits of the dead humans in the past by clothing notification be raised in image and then disappear, which included images of the most constant celebrity, Michael Jackson and also Elvis images...so knew it was machine communication, and then saw the alien images also....so knew it was machine communication..or cold metal Earth radiation overheated.

Which would correlate to machine overheating conditions as fact of evidence, human male bio life scientists caused it.

Seeing the dead arise is not some Holy status...for even the Church always quoted "never speak of the dead or to the dead" and that the dead would only arise when called by the SACRIFICED life/DNA removal.

Relative to how it is rationally taught, not relative to an occultist scientist wanting it to be scientific.

 

[danieldemol]

I believe in reincarnation so it is eminently possible for the same people to be present when He returns. I know Bahais love to make everything metaphorical but I don't see any grounds for it in those verses.

I believe one cold say as soldiers they were just doing their job so it is not the act that would make them unrighteous.

I have had some further thoughts to help me explore your beliefs.
1. What do you make of Matthew 26:63-64 when Jesus says to the High priest and presumably those assembled in the courtroom,
'The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”
“You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”'

These parrallel verses also seem to indicate that the unrighteous living at the time of Jesus will see Him "coming on the clouds of heaven"?

2. Presumably in your reincarnation view spirits get recycled upon dying, so what spirits will be waiting around to get resurrected, and why are some recycled instantly where others are just sitting around waiting to rise from the dead?