Belief

[Aleksander]

There is some inconsistency about the rewards and punishments connected with the idea of belief. If we truly have the freedom to believe or not in God , then punishing us with hell, or hardship for not believing is hypocritical. The word "belief" itself, clearly states, that one believes only, and does not know for certain. Therefore, if God would let us know in no uncertain terms that he exists, and that he has set certain rules we must follow, and the consequnces of breaking those rules will be such and such... Then I can understand the premise of hell and heaven. But to fail to convince, and to punish for not believing, especially when one is facing so many competing religions, seem so...how to say it...ungodly.

 

[Alaric]

I agree! However, some argue that God doesn't so much punish as warn you how to behave and watch sadly as you suffer the eternal consequences for not listening. Like if God has given us free will, then He needs to respect people's own freedom to seek Him or not, and that same free will dictates the death of the soul upon death instead of rejoining Him, if you haven't been 'saved' in your lifetime.

But I don't think that's very convincing, or fair.

 

[Runt]

some argue that God doesn't so much punish as warn you how to behave and watch sadly as you suffer the eternal consequences for not listening

If God is truly "all-knowing", wouldn't he know long before we are born that we will commit "sins" in our lifetime for which we will suffer eternal consequences? So why does he let those people live their lives (thereb allowing them to commit their sins), when he knows they will be tortured for eternity? Wouldn't it make more sense for God to never let these people be born... or wouldn't they be damned long BEFORE they are born?

Which gives me three possibilities:

If God knows in advance that we will be damned, It doesn't allow us to be born, thereby keeping us with it forever rather than letting "Satan steal" our souls sometime in a future life...

Or, if God knows in advance that we will be damned, It damns us BEFORE we are ever born (kinda how people are arrested, tried, and punished in "Minority Report" before they commit a murder)... meaning that the only people who ever get a chance to live a life are those who will NOT be damned (meaning there are no eternal consequences for anything we do, because God "knew" long before we acted what our every action would be, and determined that none of these actions warrented damnation).

Or God does NOT damn people... there are no "sins"... and we all go to "Heaven" when we die.

 

[Alaric]

This is the debate I tried to start in my 'God's right to judge' thread in the general discussion forum. What you say is right, but what if we say that God isn't all-knowing, and that He can't interfere with free will. And that 'eternal damnation' is not eternal torture but eternal death/oblivion. If we have the chance of living forever with God, but must seek Him out ourselves, then this would make more sense. Not complete sense, but more sense.

 

[Runt]

There is always that possibility. Of course... I personally find it difficult to imagine an all-knowing God. When we mere humans create the concept of "God" in our minds, we strive to create something that infinitely better than us... "perfect", "all-knowing", "flawless", "infinite" etc. If God was not these things, then, being as we are, we imagine that there MUST be something HIGHER than this "flawed" God. We don't like the idea of something finite, something having limits... we believe that beyond finity is infinity, and therefore there must be something that is infinite so our imaginations don't stop at finity. (I explained that really bad... trying again. Because we can imagine infinity, which is one step above finity, we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.) So, a flawed, limited God is not enough... we can imagine an infinite, unflawed God (though we are hard pressed to expain the true nature of that God), so therefore this God "MUST" exist. So our "flawed God" is bumped down as a new concept of God forms in our minds, and the old "God" becomes something lesser... perhaps an "angel" or "spirit" or "holy ghost" or "saint" or "Jesus"?

 

[Lightkeeper]

I believe that the Divine is within us. We all have a Christ Self. God does not punish us, we punish ourselves. If we don't follow the rules we punish ourselves or other people punish us. We reap benefits or consequences from our actions. I liked the concept of God warning us. The feminine aspect of the Divine warns, but does not tell us what to believe.

 

[THE DEVIL]

we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.)

The above is a quote from a poster up above me in this debate.

Well, there is something to infinity. But it's not what you expect or want. Your tact (and I'm not speaking only of the poster but of a great many) seems to be the usual christian dogma that is unfortuantely prevalent within the christian church at this time, and that is that if its too hard than I better look for a way out.

There is something to infinity that I myself have encountered, and that is hate. Hate isn't popular with people but it sure as hell is effective as any German Jew will tell you. But hate also happens to be valuable and very,
very, very, powerful. It's just that when confronted with hate these days most people are want to run away like sorrowful rabbits. There is no escape clause with hate, it descends and you are there within it. It's sort of like an unhappy visit from THE LORD.

I hope y'all won't take these comments to personally. There is always room for improvement as we all know.

No offense intended, none excepted.

 

[Rex]

we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.)

The above is a quote from a poster up above me in this debate.

Well, there is something to infinity. But it's not what you expect or want. Your tact (and I'm not speaking only of the poster but of a great many) seems to be the usual christian dogma that is unfortuantely prevalent within the christian church at this time, and that is that if its too hard than I better look for a way out.

There is something to infinity that I myself have encountered, and that is hate. Hate isn't popular with people but it sure as hell is effective as any German Jew will tell you. But hate also happens to be valuable and very,
very, very, powerful. It's just that when confronted with hate these days most people are want to run away like sorrowful rabbits. There is no escape clause with hate, it descends and you are there within it. It's sort of like an unhappy visit from THE LORD.

I hope y'all won't take these comments to personally. There is always room for improvement as we all know.

No offense intended, none excepted.

The question is though does having Hate make you feel good? Personally if I hate someone and let them know this, then what have I gained? It would do nothing more than bring guilt to me.

But on the other hand if I hate some sort of organization that I don't think is doing the right thing then that hate might make me more determined to be heard which is a good thing.

2 sides to everything I guess.

 

[THE DEVIL]

we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.)

The above is a quote from a poster up above me in this debate.

Well, there is something to infinity. But it's not what you expect or want. Your tact (and I'm not speaking only of the poster but of a great many) seems to be the usual christian dogma that is unfortuantely prevalent within the christian church at this time, and that is that if its too hard than I better look for a way out.

There is something to infinity that I myself have encountered, and that is hate. Hate isn't popular with people but it sure as hell is effective as any German Jew will tell you. But hate also happens to be valuable and very,
very, very, powerful. It's just that when confronted with hate these days most people are want to run away like sorrowful rabbits. There is no escape clause with hate, it descends and you are there within it. It's sort of like an unhappy visit from THE LORD.

I hope y'all won't take these comments to personally. There is always room for improvement as we all know.

No offense intended, none excepted.

The question is though does having Hate make you feel good? Personally if I hate someone and let them know this, then what have I gained? It would do nothing more than bring guilt to me.

But on the other hand if I hate some sort of organization that I don't think is doing the right thing then that hate might make me more determined to be heard which is a good thing.

2 sides to everything I guess.

Although I respect your specifics I can't quite agree about there being two sides to everything. I've seen that for the most part that there is only one side. Usually mine own.

I feel better about that way.

 

[Rex]

we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.)

The above is a quote from a poster up above me in this debate.

Well, there is something to infinity. But it's not what you expect or want. Your tact (and I'm not speaking only of the poster but of a great many) seems to be the usual christian dogma that is unfortuantely prevalent within the christian church at this time, and that is that if its too hard than I better look for a way out.

There is something to infinity that I myself have encountered, and that is hate. Hate isn't popular with people but it sure as hell is effective as any German Jew will tell you. But hate also happens to be valuable and very,
very, very, powerful. It's just that when confronted with hate these days most people are want to run away like sorrowful rabbits. There is no escape clause with hate, it descends and you are there within it. It's sort of like an unhappy visit from THE LORD.

I hope y'all won't take these comments to personally. There is always room for improvement as we all know.

No offense intended, none excepted.

The question is though does having Hate make you feel good? Personally if I hate someone and let them know this, then what have I gained? It would do nothing more than bring guilt to me.

But on the other hand if I hate some sort of organization that I don't think is doing the right thing then that hate might make me more determined to be heard which is a good thing.

2 sides to everything I guess.

Although I respect your specifics I can't quite agree about there being two sides to everything. I've seen that for the most part that there is only one side. Usually mine own.

I feel better about that way.

Yes but saying that you recognize that their is the "other side" . Thus being more than just 1.

hehe

 

[THE DEVIL]

we imagine that there must be SOMETHING that is infinite, whether time, God, energy, etc. If there were not, then infinity is useless to us.)

The above is a quote from a poster up above me in this debate.

Well, there is something to infinity. But it's not what you expect or want. Your tact (and I'm not speaking only of the poster but of a great many) seems to be the usual christian dogma that is unfortuantely prevalent within the christian church at this time, and that is that if its too hard than I better look for a way out.

There is something to infinity that I myself have encountered, and that is hate. Hate isn't popular with people but it sure as hell is effective as any German Jew will tell you. But hate also happens to be valuable and very,
very, very, powerful. It's just that when confronted with hate these days most people are want to run away like sorrowful rabbits. There is no escape clause with hate, it descends and you are there within it. It's sort of like an unhappy visit from THE LORD.

I hope y'all won't take these comments to personally. There is always room for improvement as we all know.

No offense intended, none excepted.

The question is though does having Hate make you feel good? Personally if I hate someone and let them know this, then what have I gained? It would do nothing more than bring guilt to me.

But on the other hand if I hate some sort of organization that I don't think is doing the right thing then that hate might make me more determined to be heard which is a good thing.

2 sides to everything I guess.

Although I respect your specifics I can't quite agree about there being two sides to everything. I've seen that for the most part that there is only one side. Usually mine own.

I feel better about that way.

Yes but saying that you recognize that their is the "other side" . Thus being more than just 1.

hehe

Yes, but why do you want more than one answer?

 

[Runt]

Devil, did you call me a CHRISTIAN?!? *laughs*

I am no Christian! If I'm anything I'm a really weird eclectic agnostic unitarian universalist taoist pagan person. But definitely not Christian. Honestly, where did you get that from? I say that people decide God must be infinite because they can imagine something infinite, and you think that is Christian thought?

And hate is not infinite. Hate destroys, and when something is destroyed it is no more. Hate comes with mankind and does not exist independently of us, and when we are gone it will be too. Finite. Sorry.

 

[THE DEVIL]

Devil, did you call me a CHRISTIAN?!? *laughs*

I am no Christian! If I'm anything I'm a really weird eclectic agnostic unitarian universalist taoist pagan person. But definitely not Christian. Honestly, where did you get that from? I say that people decide God must be infinite because they can imagine something infinite, and you think that is Christian thought?

And hate is not infinite. Hate destroys, and when something is destroyed it is no more. Hate comes with mankind and does not exist independently of us, and when we are gone it will be too. Finite. Sorry.

I see now that you're not a christian and that's fine. But Hate is infinite. And although hate destroys it doesn't become weaker or something it becomes stronger. Hate doesn't come with any kind. And hate does exist independently of us. It's infinate and you are simply wrong, thouroughly wrong. Just because you yourself might have small hate and you probably run from hate when you can, doesn't mean that it isn't valuable. You might say that you just haven't met hate yet. Also you literally can't imagine infinity you can only actually know it for real. I met hate for real when I met infinity that's why I know that hate is infinate.

 

[Runt]

How can hate be independent of life? Hate is an EMOTION: it only exists when there is a body to produce the appropriate chemicals for emotion and a mind to perceive and respond to emotion.

 

[Runt]

Crappers!

 

[Runt]

My bad...

 

[Runt]

Oops... and only admins can delete posts here *looks at Rex* Fix it?

 

[THE DEVIL]

How can hate be independent of life? Hate is an EMOTION: it only exists when there is a body to produce the appropriate chemicals for emotion and a mind to perceive and respond to emotion.

I agree.

Well, I believe hate to be individual and of life. But say that someone, perhaps for example Jesus, as he is a popular one these days. What if he had great hate. The holy cross might increase that hate, and further it along for him in the afterlife. What I'm saying is that it continues and he would find it valuable for dealing with a great many ugly or unfriendly elements. Hate then would be a great boon for jesus, and in correcting his people etc.

But of course there are a great many without any hate at all. Which is to say that they wouldn't run from hate but that they would surely recognize it when it appeared. Weak hate would be something to destroy because then we would recognize weakness and all would surely be opposed to such.

 

[Runt]

The holy cross might increase that hate, and further it along for him in the afterlife.

Ah, I think I understand. You believe in some sort of soul is basically the otherworldly correspondence to the body and that it posesses attributes like those of the biological organism it used to be: personality, emotions, etc. Does this mean you believe the soul to be biological? I cannot think of any other way for a soul to continue to hate even after death UNLESS the soul was in some way biological: if it were NOT biological, it would not have a brain with which to think, to remember its hate. It would not have chemicals that make emotions.

I personally am unable to accept the concept of a soul that has any connection to the life it once lived or the body it once lived in. But that is, of course, me...