Belief of Jehovah's Witnesses?

[Astounded]

Peg,

However, there is one sin which is taken very seriously by God....its called the 'unforgiveable' sin. It is when a person deliberately blasphemes Gods holy spirit:
Mark 3:29 However, whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit has no forgiveness forever, but is guilty of everlasting sin.”

so of all the sins mankind commits, there is only 1 that God will not forgive...all others are classed as one and the same. Sin is sin no matter what it is.

And that would make JW Jesus a sinner because at the Last Supper, if he was just a man, he is blaspheming God/Holy Spirit by taking the place of God in the todah as Jesus states to do 'it' in remembrance of him. The object of remembrance/worship in the todah is God, not man. That makes JW Jesus a sinner/usurper of what is due to God alone.

 

[Pegg]

And that would make JW Jesus a sinner because at the Last Supper, if he was just a man, he is blaspheming God/Holy Spirit by taking the place of God in the todah as Jesus states to do 'it' in remembrance of him. The object of remembrance/worship in the todah is God, not man. That makes JW Jesus a sinner/usurper of what is due to God alone.

Im giving you a simple answer here due to the fact that i am about to log off to go to work... .Paul will explain:

1Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Now notice that Paul gives detail of the 'purpose' of remembering Jesus death:
Vs 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

The remembering of Jesus was a way for the apostles/disciples to proclaim the death of Jesus in fulfillment of Gods promises. Remembering Jesus death does not make his command to do so a sin against God. It was God himself who sent Jesus to perform such a sacrifice and it is to God that thanks be given for Jesus sacrifice.

 

[Astounded]

Im giving you a simple answer here due to the fact that i am about to log off to go to work... .Paul will explain:

1Corinthians 11:23 For I received from the Lord that which I also handed on to YOU, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which he was going to be handed over took a loaf 24 and, after giving thanks, he broke it and said: “This means my body which is in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 25 He did likewise respecting the cup also, after he had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood. Keep doing this, as often as YOU drink it, in remembrance of me.”

Now notice that Paul gives detail of the 'purpose' of remembering Jesus death:
Vs 26 For as often as YOU eat this loaf and drink this cup, YOU keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives.

The remembering of Jesus was a way for the apostles/disciples to proclaim the death of Jesus in fulfillment of Gods promises. Remembering Jesus death does not make his command to do so a sin against God. It was God himself who sent Jesus to perform such a sacrifice and it is to God that thanks be given for Jesus sacrifice.

Ah no....

Whether you think the Last Supper is just a plain todah or a Passover communal todah, the object of remembrance of the todah is God.. for His saving actions.

Jesus is replacing the object of remembrance (God) with himself....that makes him a sinner/usurper, unless He is God.

BTW, Jews don't use symbols in a sacrifice. It has to be the real thing not 'this MEANS by body..this MEANS my blood....that makes it an unacceptable sacrifice.

Your theology doesn't permit an acceptable sacrifice.

 

[Pegg]

Ah no....

Whether you think the Last Supper is just a plain todah or a Passover communal todah, the object of remembrance of the todah is God.. for His saving actions.

passover was a jewish festive to commemorate the angle flying over the houses. Jesus and his apostles did celebrated that passover, then when it was finished, Jesus instituted something new for his apostles. It wasnt blasphemy, thats for sure.

Jesus is replacing the object of remembrance (God) with himself....that makes him a sinner/usurper, unless He is God.

BTW, Jews don't use symbols in a sacrifice. It has to be the real thing not 'this MEANS by body..this MEANS my blood....that makes it an unacceptable sacrifice.

Your theology doesn't permit an acceptable sacrifice.

Jesus body on the stake was the acceptable sacrifice. The fact that God resurrected him is undeniable proof that God accepted Jesus sacrifice. You may not accept it, but its not you to whom it was offered to, so the point is moot.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

The really strange thing for me that I just learned about the Jehovah's Wittnesses, is their belief that before Jesus was born he was a spirit, then he was born and took up a body, then he died, and came back to life, getting rid of his old body and taking up a new one that looked identical to the old one, then sluffing that body off and returning to life as a spirit creature.
Is it better to have a body or better to be a spirit creature?
Why do you guys believe that Christ had to be born at all? Why couldn't he just materialize?

 

[Pegg]

The really strange thing for me that I just learned about the Jehovah's Wittnesses, is their belief that before Jesus was born he was a spirit,

Thats what the scriptures state and what his apostles believed:
John 1:1  In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God
John 17:5 So now you, Father, glorify me alongside yourself with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was
John 3:13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man

Only spirits live in heaven....so if Jesus came from heaven as John believed and as Jesus taught, then he could only have been a spirit person.

then he was born and took up a body, then he died, and came back to life, getting rid of his old body and taking up a new one that looked identical to the old one, then sluffing that body off and returning to life as a spirit creature.

not quite the way we believe it....

1. Jesus was originally a spirit in heaven with God.
2. His spirit life was transferred into a human life and born in human form through Mary.
3. He sacrificed that human life once for all time to make salvation possible for all mankind. He did die and remained dead until God raised him to life as a spirit...just as he had been previously.
4. He appeared to his disciples in materialized human bodies which is what spirits can do... Jesus did so on several occasions to confirm to his disciples that he had in fact been raised to heavenly life. Thereafter he returned to heaven to be by Gods side....he could only do that because he was raised to life in the form of a spirit.

Is it better to have a body or better to be a spirit creature?
Why do you guys believe that Christ had to be born at all? Why couldn't he just materialize?

To fufill the requirement of divine justice, a life 'equivalent' to the life of Adam had to be offered to redeem Adams children from death. We die because we sin.... so divine justice requires that we die for our sins.

however, God in his great mercy provided a 'ransomer' on our behalf. Someone who was Adams exact equivalent who would pay our debt on our behalf. That person had to be sinless, he had to be perfect. That is why God sent his Son to earth....it was to give us an opportunity to be pardoned for our sins so that his unlawful death could be a replacement for ours.


So he gave up his heavenly life, was born as a human, sacrificed that life and offered it to God a ransom for our sins. After he did that, God restored Jesus life to him by raising him in his original form....a spirit.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

Was it really a sacrifice then, to go from a pathetic human body to his godly spirit body?
I'm sorry, when I get a new pair of shoes and get rid of my old ones for new ones, I don't view it at all like I am "sacrificing" my old ones. If anything I am happy to be rid of them, they were nothing compared to my new ones.

 

[Pegg]

Was it really a sacrifice then, to go from a pathetic human body to his godly spirit body?
I'm sorry, when I get a new pair of shoes and get rid of my old ones for new ones, I don't view it at all like I am "sacrificing" my old ones. If anything I am happy to be rid of them, they were nothing compared to my new ones.

the human body is a glorious thing....the earth is a glorious place


we are very fortunate to be among Gods physical creation

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

How does that answer my question about it really being a sacrifice?

 

[Pegg]

How does that answer my question about it really being a sacrifice?

no matter where our place is in the universe, in heaven or on earth, we can be absolutely certain that God put us in the right spot

if you were created as a physica being, you are no less important then a spirit being and your place in Gods physical creation is no accident...you are right where he wants you to be. How do i know? Because if he wanted you in heaven you would be in heaven.

 

[Flat Earth Kyle]

no matter where our place is in the universe, in heaven or on earth, we can be absolutely certain that God put us in the right spot

if you were created as a physica being, you are no less important then a spirit being and your place in Gods physical creation is no accident...you are right where he wants you to be. How do i know? Because if he wanted you in heaven you would be in heaven.

And the sacrifice is.... where?

I do understand and believe what you are saying about me being where God wants me to be.

 

[Super Universe]

simple reason is that the scriptures forbid such use of blood just as it forbids other things which we also avoid.

And you never stopped to wonder why the OT taught this?

Maybe because there are virus' that can be transferred from some animals blood to humans and the ignorant humans didn't have anywhere near the intelligence to understand what a virus was so it was deemed easier just to tell them to stay away from the blood?

It's 2012 now. Time to stop living in the BC era.

 

[no-body]

And you never stopped to wonder why the OT taught this?

Maybe because there are virus' that can be trasferred from some animals blood to humans and the ignorant humans didn't have anywhere near the intelligence to understand what a virus was so it was deemed easier just to tell them to stay away from the blood?

It's 2012 now. Time to stop living in the BC era.

I've always wondered how JW reconcile the blood prohibition and Jesus saying anything that passes your lips won't make you unclean. Do JW not eat shellfish, etc too?

 

[Super Universe]

I've always wondered how JW reconcile the blood prohibition and Jesus saying anything that passes your lips won't make you unclean. Do JW not eat shellfish, etc too?

When you invent a "new" religion you have to make some changes otherwise it's just the same thing.

Charles Taze Russell was a normal child who was brought up in a home where he was constantly threatened by his parents with being burned in hellfire for every little thing he did wrong. So, when he grew up he took parts of the bible he liked and built the Jehovah's Witness religion around them, the idea of hellfire was disregarded.

They chose to call God Jehovah because they think that most closely resembles His true name but the bible even says that God simply said "I am", meaning, "I exist" and did not give them a name. The ignorant humans then started calling Him "I am".

And the JW's put way too much faith in John (Revelations) instead of the teachings of Jesus.

 

[rusra02]

I've always wondered how JW reconcile the blood prohibition and Jesus saying anything that passes your lips won't make you unclean. Do JW not eat shellfish, etc too?

Yes, Jws eat shellfish, pork, etc. We are no longer under that Law of Moses with these dietary restrictions. The context of Jesus words (that not what enters into a man defiles him) shows he was talking about eating a meal without ceremonially washing. (Matthew 15:1-20) He was not advocating at that time eating animals forbidden by the Law of Moses, since that Law was still in force while Jesus was alive.
The prohibition on eating blood was stated first to Noah and is binding on all mankind. (Genesis 9:4)
The early Christians were also specifically commanded not to eat blood. The apostles wrote the following to the christian congregations: "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." (Acts 15:28,29)
Animals strangled without having the blood removed were not to be eaten and Christians were enjoined to abstain from blood.

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[Protester]

Was it really a sacrifice then, to go from a pathetic human body to his godly spirit body?
I'm sorry, when I get a new pair of shoes and get rid of my old ones for new ones, I don't view it at all like I am "sacrificing" my old ones. If anything I am happy to be rid of them, they were nothing compared to my new ones.

I would suggest you read

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translationof the Holy Scriptures – Part 1

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translationof the Holy Scriptures – Part 2

The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translationof the Holy Scriptures – Part 3


The above is on a well-known Southern Baptist site, so you can get an idea from reading these PDF files the difference in Biblical interpretation and Bible used between those of conservative Protestants and Jehovah Witnesses.

 

[bigbadgirl]

It is amazing how so many people can read the Bible and come away with a hundred different interpretations. You would think that the word of God would be a little more streamlined and harder to corrupt, since it is supposed to be the word of God. JW's interpretation is just one of hundreds.

 

[rusra02]

It is amazing how so many people can read the Bible and come away with a hundred different interpretations. You would think that the word of God would be a little more streamlined and harder to corrupt, since it is supposed to be the word of God. JW's interpretation is just one of hundreds.

The Bible writers warned that some would be "twisting..the Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16) My experience is people can twist any statement, no matter how clear and unambiguous, to suit their preconceived ideas.
Jesus warned about false prophets, and said we could recognize the true faith and false by the "fruits" produced, or the works and practices of a religion. (Matthew 7:15-20) Based on their works, I believe Jws are the true religion that earnestly tries to follow Bible teachings.

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[no-body]

Yes, Jws eat shellfish, pork, etc. We are no longer under that Law of Moses with these dietary restrictions. The context of Jesus words (that not what enters into a man defiles him) shows he was talking about eating a meal without ceremonially washing. (Matthew 15:1-20)

What does washing your hands have to do with what enters your body?

He was not advocating at that time eating animals forbidden by the Law of Moses, since that Law was still in force while Jesus was alive.
The prohibition on eating blood was stated first to Noah and is binding on all mankind. (Genesis 9:4)
The early Christians were also specifically commanded not to eat blood. The apostles wrote the following to the christian congregations: "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication." (Acts 15:28,29)
Animals strangled without having the blood removed were not to be eaten and Christians were enjoined to abstain from blood.

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Why do JW listen to Paul over Jesus anyway?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What does washing your hands have to do with what enters your body?
Why do JW listen to Paul over Jesus anyway?

The reference to 'washing hands' at Matthew [15v20] was in reference to the Pharisees going beyond what was required under the Constitution of the Mosaic law.
They wrongly practiced a 'ceremonial' washing of hands up to their elbows. [see also Mark 7 vs3-7,13]

Curious: What did Paul say over Jesus?