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Belief of Jehovah's Witnesses?

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by wackybasith, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    No, 'John' said that Jesus said ...
    ... and there is no consensus on who the author was or the date of composition.​
     
  2. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    is that any different to me saying

    'the hebrew prophets said God said..."

    How do you come to trust anything written by anyone who makes any sort of claim?
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    It's not, and when I come to such verses I take them to represent what tradition tells us rather than what God said. To build a theology based upon the language used in a second-hand account seems iffy to me. Personally, I think the YHWH/Jehovah fetish is a bit silly.
     
  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Jesus, according to Mark [7vs1-7,13] and Matthew [15v9], separates tradition.
    There is the wrong traditions of men [like the Pharisees] that upheld traditions or customs outside of Scripture as if they were Scripture.
    No Bible writer upholds anything that is Not found in Scripture.
    -Proverbs 30vs5,6; Matthew 4v4

    Weren't the Bible writers all in agreement in that all Bible writers gave credit to God as being Author ?
    They were God's penmen [secretaries] as having God was their Boss.
    Please notice what Scripture is good for according to 2nd Timothy 3vs16,17.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Sorry, I was not clear. Yes, Lord, God and Father, but in Jesus model prayer [Matt 6v9 and Luke 11v2] doesn't Jesus pray that 'his Father's name' should be hallowed? How can one 'hallow', ' make sacred', 'sanctify' God's name ?

    Yes, Elizabeth's son would not say Elizabeth instead of mother.

    Would you consider Jeremiah as a son of God ?
    Jeremiah [31v3] in the Hebrew used Jehovah [YHWH] instead of LORD.
    Jehovah said to Jeremiah.

    Would you consider Isaiah as a son of God ?
    Isaiah [31v4] mentions Jehovah [YHWH] speaking to Isaiah.
    See also Isaiah chapter 12 KJV.

    Would you consider David as a son of God?
    David's Psalm [68vs4,11] mentions by his name 'Jah' and Jehovah

    Would you consider John as a son of God?
    at John [12v13] doesn't John write blessed is Jesus who comes in the name of Jehovah [YHWH] ? John did not write: comes in his own name Jesus, but comes in God's name. See also Mark 11v9; Matthew 23v39 and Luke 13v35.

    No Bible writer refrained from using the Tetragrammaton [YHWH]
    Jesus too was unique in that Jesus is the Son with a capital 'S'.
    Jesus was a heavenly direct creation according to Revelation 3v14.
    So, like Elizabeth's son would properly address her as mother,
    Jesus as a directly created Son would address his God as Father.
    -Rev 3v12.

    That does not mean God's name should be avoided.
    If Elizabeth's son was writing a letter to someone would he necessarily avoid using her name? Might not he say 'my mother Elizabeth', or 'my mother's name is Elizabeth' ? Since Elizabeth's son could properly write and say his mother's name, and even fill in her name on question forms, then why couldn't or shouldn't Jesus ?
     
  6. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    Im sure that doesnt mean you take the prophecies as spoken by the prophets as mere tradition?

    Surely there must come a point where you view the scriptures as a message from God rather then simply the message of men.

    John was an eyewitness to the events surrounding the life of Jesus. His gospel is a testimony to the things he personally saw. That would make it a first hand account.

    We take the use of Gods name as a requirement for salvation as spoken through Joel the prophet at Joel 2:32
     
  7. muslim-

    muslim- Active Member

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    I admire the fact (well, at least from what ive seen) that they take their religion seriously, try to follow it the best they can while educating their followers (although I completely disagree with what they teach).

    Is it correct that JWs do not allow/believe in divorce, except in cases of adultry etc?
     
  8. muslim-

    muslim- Active Member

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    Interesting. Thank you.
     
  9. muslim-

    muslim- Active Member

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    What Jawhawker and you mention I think is a really important topic.

    In Islam we consider this as an Isnaad, meaning a chain of narrators. For a saying of the prophet peace be upon him to be authentic, the transmission must be done from a known person/group, to another that wrote it down (or a third group). Bios of the transmitters must be known, and even good/bad memory is taken into consideration.

    Because of this, a "science of authentication" was developed, and a branch of it is called "sciences of men" (bad literal translation), "authenticating" some, while not accepting narrations of others. Also the chain of narrators must be connected whether it involves groups or individuals. They must all be trustworthy and with good memory. Dates of birth/death must be known for certain, naturally.

    So therefore, many narrations attributed to the prophet peace be upon him, are rejected. Either due to disconnected chains, or chains having names of unknown individuals and so on. Adherence to principles of authentication is taken very seriously.

    Based on this, narrations were also classified as "sound/authentic", good, weak, very weak, and fabricated. Only "sound" and "good" narrations are accepted. Others are rejected even if the meaning of the text is correct and inline with other teachings, or have general accepted meanings like "respect the elder". In such cases we'd say the meaning is correct but the attribution to the prophet peace be upon him isnt.

    So, although this is a very short summary of it, to those who adhere to such concepts, do find a very big difference between "John said that Jesus said" and "Jesus said". And by the way im not saying John or Jesus did or didnt say this or that, but only talking about the concept in general.
     
    #309 muslim-, Oct 27, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2011
  10. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    yes that is correct

    Jesus set the rule that only for the case of adultery can the innocent partner divorce and remarry. That is also our stand. If one partner is disloyal, then the other has scriptural grounds to divorce if they choose to.
     
  11. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Virgin birth is also out of the question for a JW.
    From what I`ve been told by JW`s.
     
  12. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    that authentication that we use is the NT and Hebrew scriptures. To us, if it is written therein, then there is no question about its authenticity. the scriptures are the sole authority. Anything that is not written in scripture is viewed as mans doctrine, ie trinity, immortal soul... neither of these concepts are found in the scriptures, yet some churches teach them. So we do not accept any doctrine which is not explicitly stated in the scriptures.
     
  13. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    we do believe in the virgin birth

    i think you may be thinking about the doctrine of the 'perpetual virgin mary'. We dont see Mary as a perpetual virgin because the scriptures state that she had several more children after the birth of Jesus.

    So she did not remain a virgin after she gave birth to Jesus.
     
  14. muslim-

    muslim- Active Member

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    Pegg, please allow me to take advantage of your generous direct replies

    When did the faith of JWs start? I suspect you'll say since the time of Jesus, but when did it become a distinct established group? And what were the "founders" and their forefathers before that?

    Wiki says something about a Bible student movement in the 1870s. If this is correct and accurate, then do JWs see all Christians before them as misguided until they "found the truth" in the 1870s?
     
  15. Protester

    Protester Active Member

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    A Psalm by David.

    1Yahweh says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
    until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.”
    2Yahweh will send forth the rod of your strength out of Zion.
    Rule in the midst of your enemies.
    3Your people offer themselves willingly in the day of your power, in holy array.
    Out of the womb of the morning, you have the dew of your youth.
    4Yahweh has sworn, and will not change his mind:
    “You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”
    ---World English Bible

    Really the best of rendition of Jesus name in English is Joshua, If His name was Yeshua, why do we call Him Jesus?

    Jesus explained what those verses meant in the Old Testament.

    Mark 14
    35Jesus responded, as he taught in the temple, "“How is it that the scribes say that the Christ is the son of David? 36For David himself said in the Holy Spirit,
    ‘The Lord said to my Lord,
    “Sit at my right hand,
    until I make your enemies the footstool of your feet.”’

    37Therefore David himself calls him Lord, so how can he be his son?”"

    The common people heard him gladly. 38In his teaching he said to them, "“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk in long robes, and to get greetings in the marketplaces, 39and the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts:
    ---World English Bible

    Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary

    Mark 12:37:

    37. David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son?—There is but one solution of this difficulty. Messiah is at once inferior to David as his son according to the flesh, and superior to him as the Lord of a kingdom of which David is himself a subject, not the sovereign. The human and divine natures of Christ, and the spirituality of His kingdom—of which the highest earthly sovereigns are honored if they be counted worthy to be its subjects—furnish the only key to this puzzle.
    And the common people—the immense crowd.
    heard him gladly—"And no man was able to answer Him a word; neither durst any man from that day forth ask Him any more questions" (Mt 22:46). . . .

    So, Yahweh is never used in the New Testament. The leadership of the JW's, What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? has quite a few things wrong from the viewpoint of conservative Christians. The Bible they use is one one those errors.

     
  16. Protester

    Protester Active Member

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    . . . you asked about the Jehovah Witnesses...
     
  17. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    JW's began as a group of christians from various different denominations all coming together to for a bible study group. The group was led by a Charles Russell who was raised as a Presbyterian but had turned away from religion by age 17 because he could not accept certain church teachings as hell. So he left religion for several years, but late one night he encountered a church meeting being given in a Second Adventists church by a preacher named Mr. Jonas Wendell, what he heard that night resparked his interest and he decided to study the bible himself.
    So he and five other associates began to meet together regularly from 1870 to 1875 to make a systematic study of the Bible.

    As the group grew, they formed the 'Pennsylvania Bible Students Association' and from there they saw the need to teach others what they had learned...so they started printing the magazines that we still publish, the watchtower and Awake magazines.

    In 1931 the group, which had now grown into the thousands, changed their name to Jehovahs Witnesses and have been called this ever since. We are still primarily a bible study organization and we are global and print, translate and distribute bible literature in over 500 languages world wide.
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In reference to Psalm 110v1 there are two [2] LORD/Lord's mentioned.
    The one LORD [KJV] is in all capital letters. [LORD Yahweh]
    The other Lord is in three lower case letters.
    The LORD in all CAPITALS is where the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] stood.
    -That means that LORD Yahweh said to my Lord [Jesus].......

    Mark agrees with the Tetragrammaton [YHWH] in the KJV because Mark [12v36] had LORD in all capital letters for the Tetragrammaton or Yahweh.
    The Lord with lower case letters would be Jesus as at Psalm 110v1.

    Luke at Acts [2v34] refers to Psalm [110v1] and KJV has LORD [YHWH] for Yahweh and Lord [lower case] for Jesus.

    Luke also records Jesus as 'Son of man' at the right hand of God at Acts 7v56. Doesn't Psalm [110v1] have Lord Jesus at LORD God's right hand?

    Paul also puts the resurrected heavenly Jesus at God's right hand.-Rom 8v34

    Ephesians [1v20] has the resurrected heavenly Lord Jesus positioned at LORD God's right hand.

    Colossians [3v1] has Christ [Lord] at the right hand of God.

    Hebrews [1v3 B] has Lord Jesus at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

    Hebrews [8v1 B] has Lord Jesus as high priest at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty....or LORD God's throne. -Rev 3v21

    Hebrews [10v12] has Lord Jesus at the right hand of LORD God.

    Hebrews [12v2] has Lord Jesus at the right hand of the throne of LORD God.

    1st Peter [3v22 A] also has Jesus [Lord] at the right hand of God [LORD]...

    Aren't the ^above^ NT references to the two [2] LORD/Lord's of Psalm 110 ?

    Jesus has the keys to unlock death according to Rev. [1v18].
    That means Jesus will resurrect the person mentioned at Acts [2v34].
    Isaiah [9vs6,7] titles Jesus as: Everlasting Father.
    [Father means life giver]
    Because Jesus will resurrect David [Acts 2v34] that means that Jesus will give life back to David when David is resurrected during Jesus messianic 1000-year reign over earth.


    -[Daniel 12vs2,13]
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Technically correct.
    Please notice that Jesus did Not use the word adultery at Matthew [19v5] but Jesus used the word fornication. The reason Jesus used the word fornication instead of adultery is because the English word fornication comes from the Greek word porneia. Porneia is where the word pornography comes from.

    In other words, fornication [porneia] would be more comprehensive that just the word adultery, or act of adultery, because porneia cover all immoral sex acts including sex with an animal which would be grounds for divorce.
     
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