Gjallarhorn
N'yog-Sothep
I've noticed quite a few people nowadays rejecting the Trinity doctrine. Just wanted to know how prevalent it is here on the forums.
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Belief in the Trinity
- Thread starter Gjallarhorn
- Start date
I'm not a Christian (I was raised one), but if I was, I would be non-Trinitarian. Simply because I find the orthodox belief that the ''only'' God that exists is in 3 forms and one can only be saved through said trinity to be too restrictive. The various philosophies and beliefs that can be found in Christianity are too vast and (at times) grand to be bound by the belief in the literal trinity.
Besides, if I went to a Trinitarian church, I would only believe in it metaphorically.
Besides, if I went to a Trinitarian church, I would only believe in it metaphorically.
I think you mean the people who believe God The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit but do not believe they are all the same.
I don't believe they are three and also one. I believe some aspects of the trinity. They are unified so what they do is the same as each one does but they are not the same one. The Holy Spirit which helps me is not The God coming to me personally. The Son who leads me is not The Father leading me personally. I believe The Father had the son, so before that happened for real it was God's will to bear a son, and in that way the son was always with The Father. First as God's will then as God's manifestation.
I don't believe they are three and also one. I believe some aspects of the trinity. They are unified so what they do is the same as each one does but they are not the same one. The Holy Spirit which helps me is not The God coming to me personally. The Son who leads me is not The Father leading me personally. I believe The Father had the son, so before that happened for real it was God's will to bear a son, and in that way the son was always with The Father. First as God's will then as God's manifestation.
My conception of the Oneness of God is that of a Tri-unity of Persons united by one, common essence and by their mutual self-offering and self-giving of each other, united by the bond of Love between the Father and the Son that is the Holy Spirit. In this utter abandonment of self-will, the three Persons are One God, one Being, sharing one Unknowable Divine Essence. Pope John Paul II stated in his apostolic letter Mulieris Dignitatem that Man whether man or woman is the only being among the creatures of the visible world that God the Creator has willed for its own sake; that creature is thus a person. Being a person means striving towards self-realization, which can only be achieved through a sincere gift of self. The model for this interpretation of the person is God himself as Trinity, as a communion of Persons.
True love for me, as a Christian, is inseparable from the Trinity - the relationship between the three persons in the Godhead - who each selflessly empty themselves for one another. Each of the persons of the Trinity lives completely for the others; each is a complete gift of self to the others. This complete self-giving not only constitutes the individual persons of the Trinity, but also their inseparable oneness. Thus, for Christians the very basis of all reality is the loving communion of persons that is the Holy Trinity. Our ultimate goal is to participate in this life of the Trinity beyond creation and our created being, to become one in that unity of love.
True love for me, as a Christian, is inseparable from the Trinity - the relationship between the three persons in the Godhead - who each selflessly empty themselves for one another. Each of the persons of the Trinity lives completely for the others; each is a complete gift of self to the others. This complete self-giving not only constitutes the individual persons of the Trinity, but also their inseparable oneness. Thus, for Christians the very basis of all reality is the loving communion of persons that is the Holy Trinity. Our ultimate goal is to participate in this life of the Trinity beyond creation and our created being, to become one in that unity of love.
I cannot believe "the inseparable oneness" is true regarding the relationship that is them. (I don't know how some people can talk about them as they do-but here I am doing it too). The Son of Man was separated from his Father when he was a man. His love and loyalty was tried as a man but if Jesus is God he could not have proved his love and loyalty. What would be the point of doing that?
Also I do not believe it is possible to be united with the son and the Father. We can be united with God's purpose in love.
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I have put the teaching of the Trinity on a back burner for a time. I used to accept it without question, but I began to question it a while back. For years, I described it as the old H2O- water, ice and steam only to find out that is not an explanation for the Trinity but for Modalism- which is considered heresy by some denominations. Modalism actually makes more sense to me that the Trinity.
So, for the time being, I am undecided about what I think of the Trinity. I guess I am a unicorn (
)
So, for the time being, I am undecided about what I think of the Trinity. I guess I am a unicorn (
)
I find the Eastern Orthodox writings/teachings on the Trinity superior to what it 'is', as much as that can be asserted,
far more than anything I was ever taught in my first 31 years.
The Orthodox doctrine dwells in the experience of Trinity, over understanding of it.
And that, in short, isn't easily relayed here.
Reading the Essence-Energies distinction in the Orthodox tradition helped a lot.
far more than anything I was ever taught in my first 31 years.
The Orthodox doctrine dwells in the experience of Trinity, over understanding of it.
And that, in short, isn't easily relayed here.
Reading the Essence-Energies distinction in the Orthodox tradition helped a lot.
Karl R
Active Member
In my opinion, the "support" for the belief in the trinity is tenuous.
The support for the holy spirit seems to be the weakest. To give an analogy, if you are trying to move a sofa, and I offer to lend you my strength to assist you, does that make "my strength" somehow separate and distinct from me? Does my strength have consciousness and a will separate from my own? Similarly, when Jesus said god would send his spirit to be with the disciples, he gave no indication that "god's spirit" is any more separate from god than "my strength" is separate from me.
The support for Jesus hinges on the statement "I and my father are one." Trinitarians claim Jesus was letting us know that he was actually god. It is certainly one explanation for the statement. However, it overlooks the possibility that Jesus was expressing a belief in nondual judaism (essentially the same as pantheism). According to that belief, god is existence. From that perspective, Jesus and god are one, just like I and god are one, just like you and god are one.
In order for Jesus' statement to support the trinitarian view, you have to view the universe from the trinitarian perspective, which makes it circular logic, at best.
I would certainly say that it's possible that the trinitarian belief is correct (more correct than nontrinitarian beliefs), but I wouldn't say that the concept is well supported by christian scripture.
The support for the holy spirit seems to be the weakest. To give an analogy, if you are trying to move a sofa, and I offer to lend you my strength to assist you, does that make "my strength" somehow separate and distinct from me? Does my strength have consciousness and a will separate from my own? Similarly, when Jesus said god would send his spirit to be with the disciples, he gave no indication that "god's spirit" is any more separate from god than "my strength" is separate from me.
The support for Jesus hinges on the statement "I and my father are one." Trinitarians claim Jesus was letting us know that he was actually god. It is certainly one explanation for the statement. However, it overlooks the possibility that Jesus was expressing a belief in nondual judaism (essentially the same as pantheism). According to that belief, god is existence. From that perspective, Jesus and god are one, just like I and god are one, just like you and god are one.
In order for Jesus' statement to support the trinitarian view, you have to view the universe from the trinitarian perspective, which makes it circular logic, at best.
I would certainly say that it's possible that the trinitarian belief is correct (more correct than nontrinitarian beliefs), but I wouldn't say that the concept is well supported by christian scripture.
Jesus as good as God's will is certain. Surely Jesus who can be seen is not God who cannot be seen. Exodus 33:20
Our face reflects how we are feeling and judging. It is call countenance. Surely Jesus showed us how he felt about many things by his words and by his bearing.
Then who did Ezekiel see? Who did John see in Revelation? Who did Daniel see? (The Ancient of Days)?
Revelation 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
You cannot see God; except manifestations of God. These you can see. These are revelations of God about Himself unto His Creation. Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. Called the express image of the invisible God.
Furthermore, do you understand that Jesus came in the flesh? Thus, what they saw was His human body. It was the glory of God veiled in human flesh. He called His body the temple in John 2:19. And look what it says in Heb. 10:5"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"
And who do you think is the King of kings and Lord of lords? Isn't it clearly Jesus according to Rev. 17:14?
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Yet, of the King of kings and Lord of lords it is written that He is the only Potentate, and that He dwells in unapproachable light, and that no man has seen Him and they cannot see Him. Yet, Jesus will shew Him. Jesus is the manifestation of the King of kings and Lord of lords.
1 Timothy 6:14-16 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Any good encyclopedia can be consulted as to the origin of this false teaching. Trinitys of false gods abound. Even the Catholic encyclopedia admits:
The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation one God in three Persons was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.
I believe this teaching has no support in the Bible, the word "trinity" not even mentioned therein. Jesus always called himself "God's Son", never "God the Son." (John10:36)
The impression could arise that the Trinitarian dogma is in the last analysis a late 4th-century invention. In a sense, this is true . . . The formulation one God in three Persons was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century.New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Volume 14, page 299.
I believe this teaching has no support in the Bible, the word "trinity" not even mentioned therein. Jesus always called himself "God's Son", never "God the Son." (John10:36)
JSYK, that Catholic Encyclopedia quote is badly out of context. I've seen the full thing without any ". . ."'s before, and that's not what it says.
Out of curiosity, would you describe yourself as a Sabellian? Not a polemic or argument-starter or anything, just curious what exactly you believe
Similar.Out of curiosity, would you describe yourself as a Sabellian? Not a polemic or argument-starter or anything, just curious what exactly you believe
However, it is not as if God switches "modes" and when He does; then the other modes turn off. I believe these are simply manifestations of the same God. Not some kind of personality switch. Manifestations of God are aspects of this one God's nature or character that have been revealed to us through revelation.
For example we say "God the Father". It describes a relationship He has with His creation. Our God is a Father because He has offspring; therefore He is called the Father. He is a Spirit and His Spirit happens to be very holy; so we call Him the "holy Spirit". Also, He is a Son through Jesus, therefore He is called the Son of God.
And, I can go on. He is the Lamb of God why? Because He was sacrifice for sins. He is the High priest also ... why? Made so by the intercession He makes on people's behalf and the blood of the Lamb He offers. He is the chief cornerstone of the temple as well. Why? Because He came in the flesh, was resurrected and His body is the temple of God. He is the veil of the holiest of holies ... again that is His flesh. So, if we believe that He is the priest, the sacrifice, the temple and the veil. Then is it a stretch to believe He is the God of the temple also? All these are manifestations of the same being. And people should keep in mind the difference between flesh and Spirit when studying the nature of Christ.
Also, I guess many Modalists taught that the Son of God was always so?
I believe He was the Son through birth (Luke 1:35) and of course by the resurrection. There was a specific point in history; when He became what He already was in foreknowledge and predestination. People should keep foreknowledge and foreordaination in mind when studying the nature of Christ.
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So you don't necessarily believe in God having "masks", but more having "facets". I think I understand what you're saying. Thanks for sharing!
NoraSariah
Active Member
I believe that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are separate. Three separate beings that are one in purpose.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
I voted no.
Jesus said he had come from heaven to do the will of the Father. He never claimed that he himself was the Father and nowhere do the scriptures state that Jesus is the Father.
John 20:16*Jesus said to her: Mary! Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: Rab·bo′ni! (which means Teacher!) 17*Jesus said to her: Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.
KISS.
Jesus said he had come from heaven to do the will of the Father. He never claimed that he himself was the Father and nowhere do the scriptures state that Jesus is the Father.
John 20:16*Jesus said to her: Mary! Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: Rab·bo′ni! (which means Teacher!) 17*Jesus said to her: Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.
KISS.
kjw47
Well-Known Member
Jesus himself teaches that he has a God--John 20:17,, rev 3:12--and at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28--Gods word clearly teaches once Jesus hands back the kingdom to his God and Father, Jesus will be in subjection to him--- proving no equality.
People need to listen to Jesus over mens false dogma.
The trinity translations are filled with errors.
