Belief in god/a higher power but not afterlife

[ecco]

LOL... So you think they build space shuttles on unproven ideas.

...You don't seem to understand science at all.

You are in the mood to play silly games.

I am not in the mood to play silly games with you.

Bye.

 

[Cooky]

You are in the mood to play silly games.

I am not in the mood to play silly games with you.

Bye.

You don't seem to understand science at all.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet, for some reason, you take it as evidence for an afterlife. Perhaps you don't understand what the wordS "fiction" and allegedly mean.

​

One hundred years ago, a man who is a spiritualist, claims a dead person took control of his hand and pen and writes a story from the standpoint of the dead person. And you take it as fact even when your own source tells you it is fiction. WOW!

Straw man. I never said it is evidence by itself. The evidence for me is what Baha'u'llah wrote, everything else is just icing in the cake.

Straw man. I also never said the book is factual. It is just an interesting story and there could be some truth in it.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK. Let's look at the other piece of evidence you rely on.

Straw man. I never said I relied upon these books. I rely only upon what Baha'u'llah wrote.

At the very foundation of religious faith and hope is a belief that consciousness will survive death and that we will live on in another dimension of reality. But that foundation easily crumbles when scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife, when they are unable to visualize a non-material world. As the foundation gives way, the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.
​

Why am I not surprised that you would reference a book that, right off the top, denigrates science and blames it for the ills of the world.

Another straw man argument. He did not blame science, he blamed the pholosophy of materialism.
Tymn said: scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife
Tymn said: the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.

I post this knowing that you won't even bother reading the absolute rebuttals of your sources and beliefs. But, there is always the peanut gallery.

Tymn is not the source of any of my beliefs, Baha'u'llah is.

 

[ajay0]

The Prajapita Brahmakumaris hold as part of their theological doctrine, belief in God and the afterlife too.

Since the soul is eternal and immortal, it survives the physical death of the temporary body.

They believe in an another dimension called the subtle world, similar to the astral worlds spoken about by Yogananda in his book, 'The autobiography of a yogi'.


https://www.brahma-kumaris.com/three-worlds

Now there is another world, a world of thoughts. In this world, there is no sound nor any material objects. It is a completely flexible world upon thoughts. This world is just like our mind, which is created and shaped by our own thoughts. We call it the subtle world. Made and shaped with colours of our thoughts, this world is of angels (as we say them). In the subtle world, our body is of transparent divine light. The light of me the soul, for example, would form my subtle body; and so the same is for all souls. The more virtues a soul has, the more colorful the body it has in the subtle world. More powerful and knowledgeful the soul is, the more luminous is its glow. This is a world of complete freedom.


The third world lies beyond which is the permanent residence of GOD the supreme soul. In the Soul world, as the name suggests, only the tiny points of light (souls) live. This is the highest dimensions. Here no life, no moments, no feelings exist. It is just you, God the supreme soul and eternal sweet silence.. thinking about it is also a kind of purification of the soul. Surely there is no bodily experience here. It has many names: Silence home, Sweet Home, Home of light, Paramdham (supreme residence), Shanti Dham, Nirwaan Dham (place beyond sound).

 

[ecco]

The evidence for me is what Baha'u'llah wrote, everything else is just icing in the cake.

So now, finally, we get to the truth. All your posts about "hearing" stories from people who experienced NDEs; all the books you "read"; are just icing.

You believe for the same reason you believe most everything else. You believe because you believe someone who allegedly talked with a god allegedly said so.

Straw man. I also never said the book is factual. It is just an interesting story and there could be some truth in it.

You posted it as evidence! Don't you remember?

You chastised me for not even reading the introduction. When I read the intro, I found that your own Bahais listed it as fiction. I pointed that out to you. Now you pretend some more by asserting "I also never said the book is factual". Yeah. You also never said it was fiction until I showed you that it was.



So, to recap, you believe in an afterlife because a disgruntled Muslim said it was real and you supported that belief with a book that is acknowledged as fiction.

Wow!

 

[ecco]

Another straw man argument. He did not blame science, he blamed the pholosophy of materialism.

No. You really need to read that carefully...

At the very foundation of religious faith and hope is a belief that consciousness will survive death and that we will live on in another dimension of reality. But that foundation easily crumbles when scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife, when they are unable to visualize a non-material world.​

As used in the above, the phrase "non-material world" is a clear reference to an afterlife where there are no material beings, only evanescent spiritual beings.

The writer blames science for being unable to visualize a non-material, evanescent world.


Then, and only then, does he begin to ramblle about the evils of the materialistic world

As the foundation gives way, the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.​

You really need to understand the different usages and meanings of the root "material" as your author uses them.

Tymn said: scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife
Tymn said: the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.
Tymn is not the source of any of my beliefs, Baha'u'llah is.

If Tymn is not the source of your beliefs, why do you quote him?
If the author of a book of fiction is not the source of your beliefs, why do you quote him?

Is it that you just want to waste my time?

 

[Trailblazer]

So now, finally, we get to the truth. All your posts about "hearing" stories from people who experienced NDEs; all the books you "read"; are just icing.

You believe for the same reason you believe most everything else. You believe because you believe someone who allegedly talked with a god allegedly said so.

Yes, that is the main reason I believe there is an afterlife. I cannot say if I would believe in an afterlife if I did not believe in God, as that would not make much sense to me. The reason I believe there is another life after physical death is because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about the purpose of this life, which is to prepare for the life beyond. This life would not have any real purpose if there was no life after death. Also, the suffering in this life would have no purpose.

You posted it as evidence! Don't you remember?

Yes, I posted it as what I consider evidence for nonreligious people.

You chastised me for not even reading the introduction. When I read the intro, I found that your own Bahais listed it as fiction. I pointed that out to you. Now you pretend some more by asserting "I also never said the book is factual". Yeah. You also never said it was fiction until I showed you that it was.

It was listed as fiction because it cannot be considered fact, but that does not mean there is nothing to it.

So, to recap, you believe in an afterlife because a disgruntled Muslim said it was real and you supported that belief with a book that is acknowledged as fiction.

I believe in an afterlife because of what the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha wrote.
I cannot really say what I would believe if I was not a Baha'i, as I never even thought about it before that.
The other books I have read confirm what Baha'u'llah revealed about the afterlife, and they go into more detail about what happens in the afterlife (spiritual world). If you want even more detail you can read the book Heaven and Hell for free online. I do not necessarily believe everything he wrote, but some of it, such as the parts about the heavens and the hells, could be what Baha'u'llah said that God has concealed, and for good reasons.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345
.

 

[Trailblazer]

No. You really need to read that carefully...

At the very foundation of religious faith and hope is a belief that consciousness will survive death and that we will live on in another dimension of reality. But that foundation easily crumbles when scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife, when they are unable to visualize a non-material world.​

As used in the above, the phrase "non-material world" is a clear reference to an afterlife where there are no material beings, only evanescent spiritual beings.

That's right, there are no material beings in the afterlife. It is a purely spiritual world, so if all you ever related to was this physical world, and nothing spiritual, it will be quite an adjustment. That's what I mean about preparation in the previous post.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

The writer blames science for being unable to visualize a non-material, evanescent world.

The writer did not blame science. He said:
"scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife, they are unable to visualize a non-material world."

Then, and only then, does he begin to ramble about the evils of the materialistic world

As the foundation gives way, the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.​

You really need to understand the different usages and meanings of the root "material" as your author uses them.

I know more about the author and the book than you do because I have the book and I have read it at least twice.

If Tymn is not the source of your beliefs, why do you quote him?
If the author of a book of fiction is not the source of your beliefs, why do you quote him?

I did not quote him, you quoted him. I quoted the Baha'i Writings.

Is it that you just want to waste my time?

You can do whatever you want with your time, but I suggest that if you want to get a broad overview of what Baha'is believe about the afterlife you read this article. Death and Dying in the Bahá'í Faith

Below is an excerpt from the article:

"The physical is not a preparation for the spiritual existence. The existential theories of the Bahá’í faith regard human life as moving between the two poles of the physical and the spiritual, and the two worlds are not separate from each other, they are rather interwoven with each other. The only difference is that the world of physical existence has the dimension of temporality whereas the world of spiritual existence is eternal. Life in this world does not prepare for afterlife but since the spiritual world is not detached from the physical world activity in this world influences that which continues in the spiritual one. Death does not mean movement into another life, but continuation of this life.It is simply another category or stage of existence. The best that a person can do in this world, therefore, is to achieve spiritual growth, if this is achieved in this world it will continue in the Abhā Kingdom as well.

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs."​

 

[ecco]

Yes, that is the main reason I believe there is an afterlife.

This life would not have any real purpose if there was no life after death. Also, the suffering in this life would have no purpose.

Purpose is what you make of it.
Meaning is what you make of it.
Suffering happens.

Many atheists find purpose and meaning in life and accept that suffering and death are part of that.

A theist like you, apparently cannot find meaning and purpose in this life and has to try to look for something more. That's really sad.

Yes, I posted it as what I consider evidence for nonreligious people.

That's funny. Do you really think atheists take fictional books to be evidence for anything to do with reality? THINK!

It was listed as fiction because it cannot be considered fact, but that does not mean there is nothing to it.

Duh!

I believe in an afterlife because of what the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdu'l-Baha wrote.

Disgruntled ex-Muslims write a whole bunch of stuff and you believe it.

“Know thou that every hearing ear, if kept pure and undefiled, must, at all times and from every direction, hearken to the voice that uttereth these holy words: “Verily, we are God’s, and to Him shall we return.” The mysteries of man’s physical death and of his return have not been divulged, and still remain unread. By the righteousness of God! Were they to be revealed, they would evoke such fear and sorrow that some would perish, while others would be so filled with gladness as to wish for death, and beseech, with unceasing longing, the one true God—exalted be His glory—to hasten their end.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 345

Disgruntled ex-Muslims write a whole bunch of stuff and you believe it.

 

[ecco]

That's right, there are no material beings in the afterlife. It is a purely spiritual world, so if all you ever related to was this physical world, and nothing spiritual, it will be quite an adjustment. That's what I mean about preparation in the previous post.

So, you, a material being, have read about an ethereal afterlife, and you somehow think you are better prepared than I am. Your own quoted passage, which I addressed in my previous post, shows that you cannot be prepared any more than I am.

I know more about the author and the book than you do because I have the book and I have read it at least twice.

That doesn't mean you have a better understanding of the English language than I do. Clearly when it comes to "material" and "materialism", you do not.

 

[ecco]

If Tymn is not the source of your beliefs, why do you quote him?

I did not quote him, you quoted him.

I stand corrected. You did not quote him. You merely linked to a book written by him.

The following are not NDE references. You'd have realized that if you had even read the introductions in the books.

The Afterlife Revealed

You chastised me for not taking my time to look up what he was all about. All that and then you say you don't really use it as evidence. THEN WHY DID YOU REFER TO IT?

 

[Trailblazer]

Purpose is what you make of it.
Meaning is what you make of it.
Suffering happens.

Many atheists find purpose and meaning in life and accept that suffering and death are part of that.

A theist like you, apparently cannot find meaning and purpose in this life and has to try to look for something more. That's really sad.

Meaning is not the same as purpose. Anyone can find meaning in life.

The purpose of our existence is what God created us for, not what we decide we were created for.
An atheist like you has no interest in knowing what you were created for.
That's really sad

 

[Trailblazer]

So, you, a material being, have read about an ethereal afterlife, and you somehow think you are better prepared than I am. Your own quoted passage, which I addressed in my previous post, shows that you cannot be prepared any more than I am.

I never said I was more prepared than you are. We will only know how prepared we are when we arrive on the afterlife landing strip and realize how prepared or unprepared we were.

However, knowing that God exists and what He revealed gives one a certain advantage.

 

[ecco]

Meaning is not the same as purpose.

I didn't say it was. If you had read correctly, you would have seen I responded separately to each one.

The purpose of our existence is what God created us for, not what we decide we were created for.

Others would disagree with your "definition"...




What Is Your Purpose In Life? (Real Examples Of Others)
What are some examples of a purpose in life? There are a lot of commonly known purposes in life, like:

• Providing for your family
• Living a successful life
• Making positive connections with others and enjoying those around you
• Traveling the world
• Fighting the declining condition of our planet
• Etc

An atheist like you has no interest in knowing what you were created for.

An atheist like me knows that my creation is probably the result of carnal desires of my mother and father.

An atheist like me knows that your creation is probably the result of carnal desires of your mother and father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Others would disagree with your "definition"...

What Is Your Purpose In Life? (Real Examples Of Others)
What are some examples of a purpose in life? There are a lot of commonly known purposes in life, like:

• Providing for your family
• Living a successful life
• Making positive connections with others and enjoying those around you
• Traveling the world
• Fighting the declining condition of our planet
• Etc

They have a right to disagree and make those things their purpose. Some of those things and others can add meaning and give one a purpose, but they are not what we were created for, according to my religious beliefs.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

 

[ecco]

They have a right to disagree and make those things their purpose. Some of those things and others can add meaning and give one a purpose, but they are not what we were created for, according to my religious beliefs.

“The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence. To this most excellent aim, this supreme objective, all the heavenly Books and the divinely-revealed and weighty Scriptures unequivocally bear witness.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

Right. You base your life on the writings ramblings of a disgruntled ex-Muslim. Oh, well.


BTW, do you understand what the word "gleanings" means?

 

[Trailblazer]

Right. You base your life on the writings ramblings of a disgruntled ex-Muslim. Oh, well.

No, my life is guided by, not based upon, the Writings of the Baha'i Faith.

BTW, do you understand what the word "gleanings" means?

Gleanings: things, especially facts, that are gathered or collected from various sources rather than acquired as a whole. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=gleanings+means

It is called Gleanings because it is an extraction of information from various Tablets... In the Introduction to Gleanings, which is only in the published book and not online, it explains something about Gleanings:

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

I caught the spirit of that book about 6.5 years ago so I understand what I had not understood for the previous 43.5 years.

 

[ecco]

No, my life is guided by, not based upon, the Writings of the Baha'i Faith.

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.” Gleanings

Did you note: It is not a book of history and facts,

You are swayed about the afterlife by a book that is clearly listed as fiction. Your "life is guided by ... the Writings of the Baha'i Faith". Judging by the writings that you quote, you are guided by the writings of Baha’u’llah as recounted in the Gleanings. The Gleanings, by their own admission, are not based on history nor are they factual.

Your life is guided by fiction.

I caught the spirit of that book about 6.5 years ago so I understand what I had not understood for the previous 43.5 years.

The spirit also caught the followers of Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite and David Koresh.

 

[Trailblazer]

Judging by the writings that you quote, you are guided by the writings of Baha’u’llah as recounted in the Gleanings. The Gleanings, by their own admission, are not based on history nor are they factual.

The afterlife is not based upon history, nor is it factual.

“The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men. The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157