Belief in god/a higher power but not afterlife

[Trailblazer]

No, I do not mean proof. If I wanted proof I would have asked for proof. What I said was there is no credible evidence.

You mean there is no evidence that is credible to you. What is credible varies by individual.

That is your hope based on blind faith. I have no need to pretend.

I do have faith, but it is based upon evidence.
You won't have to pretend after you die.

Do you read and understand what you are quoting?

If a body is made up of heavenly elements why would it be running hard and hot and suffocating? That's what I alluded to when I said everyone describes the afterlife differently.

I do read and understand what I am quoting. Did you understand what that man said and what he meant by what he said?

“I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe.” Private Dowding, p. 14, 16

That fits perfectly with what Abdu'l-Baha said. In the next world (the spiritual world), we will have another form made up of heavenly elements, not physical elements.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

It is because we will no longer have a physical body that a weight will be lifted. The physical body is like a cage and when we die we will be like a bird that is let out of that cage. That is why that man said: "The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated." Of course he did nit realize that he was suffocating until he was dead and no longer HAD a body, because he had no point of comparison.

 

[Starlight]

What do you imagine an afterlife is for? Why did God give us this life if it wasn’t good enough? He is the Almighty Creator....does he make imperfect junk? What was he thinking?

I would like to know what people imagine an afterlife to be like?

I think our souls live on this earth to learn. So if you end up in hellish or heavenly place in afterlife depends on how well your soul has learned its lessons

 

[ecco]

I do not know what experiments you are referring to, but I heard the exact opposite,

You "heard"?!? I say there is no credible evidence and in response you say "I heard". Please point me to the double-blind study that supports what you say you heard.

If you are really interested in facts instead of just reading stuff that supports your own beliefs, read this article. It's somewhat long but very detailed and presents both sides.

The Science of Near-Death Experiences
To get the kind of evidence for a disembodied consciousness that would satisfy a scientist, you need a good study protocol. Turns out, it’s not hard to devise one. In The Handbook, Janice Holden outlines it:

In a place where NDEs are likely to occur, plant some perceptual stimulus and then interview everyone who survives a near-death episode in the vicinity of that stimulus to determine whether they perceived it … Place the stimulus so that it is perceivable by an NDEr but not by other people in the area; in fact, to rule out the possibility that an interviewer or others might intentionally or unintentionally convey the content of the stimulus to the NDEr through normal—or even paranormal—means, arrange it so that the stimulus is not known even to the research team or associates.
To date, six studies have tried some form of this method, mostly on cardiac-arrest patients, and all have failed to find an ironclad case of veridical perception. All involved placing some stimulus—a picture or a symbol on, say, a piece of paper or an electronic display—in a high location, visible only if you were floating near the ceiling. The research designers did their best to make sure that nobody—not the doctors or nurses, not the patient, and not whoever interviewed the patient afterward—would know what the stimulus was until after the interviews were over.

...

This is key to what makes near-death experiences so powerful, and why people cling so strongly to them regardless of the scientific evidence. Whether you actually saw a divine being or your brain was merely pumping out chemicals like never before, the experience is so intense and new that it forces you to rethink your place on Earth.

​

You want proof that cannot be acquired. There is evidence but no proof.

See above.

 

[ecco]

You mean there is no evidence that is credible to you. What is credible varies by individual.

You are right. Just look at all the Trump lawyers who went before judges with what they hoped was credible evidence only to have it thrown out.

So, did the lawyers really believe it was credible, or were they going through the motions in search of a good paycheck?

Remember, all those books you say you have read all put money into the authors' pockets.

 

[ecco]

I do read and understand what I am quoting.

Read the Atlantic article and then get back to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

Remember, all those books you say you have read all put money into the authors' pockets.

That proves absolutely nothing. People write books and books make money, but that does not mean that the books were written ONLY to make money or that what is in the books is false.

Case in point:
Do you believe that Mary Trump wrote her book only to make money?
Do you believe that what Mary Trump wrote about Trump was false?

Mary Trump's book breaks record with mammoth sales - CNN

Mary Trump's tell-all memoir sells 1.35 million copies in blockbuster first week

 

[Trailblazer]

Read the Atlantic article and then get back to me.

There is no need, because I already told you I do not believe that NDEs are proof of an afterlife.
So even if all NDEs are completely bogus, that does not prove there is no afterlife.
Besides that, I could find any number of studies that say something different so why would I take that ONE article to the bank?

Get back to me if and when you really want to know more about the afterlife.

 

[ecco]

People write books and books make money, but that does not mean that the books were written ONLY to make money or that what is in the books is false.

Where did I use the word "ONLY". I didn't.

People also write books to stroke their egos. Have you ever heard the term "self published"?

People also write books to "spread the story".

Anyone can write anything in a book. That does not make it true.

Anyone can publish anything on You Tube. That does not make it true.

However, people can do scientific tests. No scientific test has ever provided credible evidence for life after death.



But you will continue to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe it. If ignoring science helps you believe, well, do your thing.

 

[ecco]

There is no need, because I already told you I do not believe that NDEs are proof of an afterlife.

If you "do not believe that NDEs are proof of an afterlife" why would you bother to write...
(my red emphases)

“I will tell you what I felt like. It was as if I had been running hard until, hot and breathless, I had thrown my overcoat away. The coat was my body, and if I had not thrown it away I should have suffocated. I cannot describe the experience in a better way; there is nothing else to describe.” Private Dowding, p. 14, 16 ...That fits perfectly with what Abdu'l-Baha said. In the next world (the spiritual world), we will have another form made up of heavenly elements, not physical elements.

​

So even if all NDEs are completely bogus, that does not prove there is no afterlife.

Again, if so, why did you reference them?

Besides that, I could find any number of studies that say something different so why would I take that ONE article to the bank?

You could? Really? Nah. You can't. That's why you haven't already shown them to us.

Besides, I didn't ask you to blindly accept what was in the Atlantic article. I suggested you read it to expand your horizons.

Get back to me if and when you really want to know more about the afterlife.

Are you now going to present evidence that doesn't rely on all the NDE references you have been making? If so, why didn't you do that to begin with?

 

[Trailblazer]

Where did I use the word "ONLY". I didn't.

People also write books to stroke their egos. Have you ever heard the term "self published"?

People also write books to "spread the story".

Anyone can write anything in a book. That does not make it true.

Anyone can publish anything on You Tube. That does not make it true.

Anyone can write a book for any reason and what is in the book can be true or false.

However, people can do scientific tests. No scientific test has ever provided credible evidence for life after death.

No scientific test has ever proven there is no life after death, that is laughable.
The fact that science cannot prove that there IS a life after death does not mean there isn't one.
The spiritual world is totally outside the purview of science.

But you will continue to believe what you want to believe because you want to believe it. If ignoring science helps you believe, well, do your thing.

I have nothing to ignore because science has not proven anything.
You will continue to believe what you believe until you die and get the evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you "do not believe that NDEs are proof of an afterlife" why would you bother to write...
(my red emphases)

That was not an NDE. It was a man who was fully dead and in the spirit world who was communicated to by a medium.

You could? Really? Nah. You can't. That's why you haven't already shown them to us.

I could but I would not waste my time because you would not believe them anyway.
I already know there is an afterlife so I have no need to prove that to myself.

Are you now going to present evidence that doesn't rely on all the NDE references you have been making? If so, why didn't you do that to begin with?

I did. The following are not NDE references. You'd have realized that if you had even read the introductions in the books.

Private Dowding

The Afterlife Revealed

 

[ecco]

However, people can do scientific tests. No scientific test has ever provided credible evidence for life after death.

No scientific test has ever proven there is no life after death, that is laughable.

This is the second time in as many posts that you have misquoted what I said.

If you want to challenge what I say, OK. If you need to make up strawmen to support your argument, then you automatically lose - in disgrace.

 

[ecco]

I have nothing to ignore because science has not proven anything.

How many times do you need to be told that science is not in the business of PROVING. Science is in the business of ACUMULTING EVIDENCE.

Why is it impossible for you to comprehend that?

Probably more realistically, you do comprehend that and you do understand that. But it serves your agenda to constantly create strawman arguments by yapping about proof as a way to ignore evidence.

That's sad, but it's something we have all come to expect from you.

 

[ecco]

deleted

 

[Cooky]

Ad hominem is the indication of a loss in debate.

 

[Cooky]

How many times do you need to be told that science is not in the business of PROVING. Science is in the business of ACUMULTING EVIDENCE.

That's interesting... Considering that in order for me to work on a high voltage powerline deenegized, we first have to isolate all sources of potential energy, and then test with a meter (the equivalent of "evidence")... The next step is to "prove" the line is deenegized, by installing grounds with a hotstick. There have been times, where a feeder-feedback was isolated on the "feedback" side, and the meter actually malfunctioned, and upon the "proving" process a circuit interruption occured on the feeder side, essentially burning down the line.

So, I would say that physical proof is indeed a factor in science. At least sometimes.

One might need to be extra-careful, by "proving" the circuits dead, when changing out a rotted, multi-circuit pole such as this:

...Likewise, in regards to "proving", I doubt we would send astronauts into space on a rocket ship that wasn't previously tested as "proven" to work.

 

[ecco]

You'd have realized that if you had even read the introductions in the books.

Private Dowding

OK, so I read the intro...

It's a 100 year old book from one of your Bahai libraries: bahai-library.com/pole_private_dowding. Most interesting is that your own Bahia library lists this book as fiction. FICTION. Your own Bahia library states the story was 'allegedly "channelled"'. ALLEGEDLY.


Yet, for some reason, you take it as evidence for an afterlife. Perhaps you don't understand what the wordS "fiction" and allegedly mean.

>> Books

Fiction
TAGS: Wellesley Tudor Pole
Abstract:
A record of a soldier in WWI allegedly "channeled" to Pole from the afterlife.
Notes:
This book only tangentionally mentions the Baha'i Faith; see pages 45-46.

Private Dowding:
The personal story of a soldier killed in battle
by Wellesley Tudor Pole
Neville Spearman, 1966
first written or published 1917​

...
I came home and sat down at my writing-table. Immediately my pen moved. Did I move it? Yes, in an involuntary sort of way. the thoughts were not my own, the language was a little unusual. Ideas were mainly conveyed in short simple phrases. It would really seem as if some intelligence outside myself were speaking through my mind and my pen.

​

Let's see about the author...

​

Wellesley Tudor Pole - Wikipedia

Wellesley Tudor Pole OBE (23 April 1884 – 13 September 1968) was a spiritualist and early British Baháʼí.

He authored many pamphlets and books and was a lifelong pursuer of religious and mystical questions and visions, being particularly involved with spiritualism and the Baháʼí Faith as well as the quest for the Holy Grail of Arthurian Legend
​

One hundred years ago, a man who is a spiritualist, claims a dead person took control of his hand and pen and writes a story from the standpoint of the dead person. And you take it as fact even when your own source tells you it is fiction. WOW!

 

[ecco]

I did. The following are not NDE references. You'd have realized that if you had even read the introductions in the books.

The Afterlife Revealed

OK. Let's look at the other piece of evidence you rely on...

https://www.amazon.com/Afterlife-Re...416362&sr=1-1&keywords=the+afterlife+revealed

• Books
• ›
• Religion & Spirituality
• ›
• Occult & Paranormal

At the very foundation of religious faith and hope is a belief that consciousness will survive death and that we will live on in another dimension of reality. But that foundation easily crumbles when scientific minds are unable to wrap their brains around an afterlife, when they are unable to visualize a non-material world. As the foundation gives way, the philosophy of materialism takes hold and gives rise to moral decadence, egocentricity, hypocrisy, hatred, disorder, flux, strife, chaos, and fear.
​

Why am I not surprised that you would reference a book that, right off the top, denigrates science and blames it for the ills of the world.

The author...

Michael E. Tymn - RationalWiki

Michael E. Tymn is an American pseudoscience promoter and spiritualist author known for his books on life after death. He is the chief editor of the Journal for Spiritual and Consciousness Studies.

He has contributed more than 1,500 articles to 40 publications over the past 50 years although the majority of these publications are paranormal related. His metaphysical and paranormal articles appear in FATE, Mysteries, Atlantis Rising, Vital Signs, Venture Inward, Nexus, Psychic News, Psychic Times and the Christian Parapsychologist.​

Tymn has no formal training in science, but he promotes his work as being grounded in scientific ideas. His work does not acknowledge studies which have debunked many of the early mediums. Tymn ignores any evidence of fraud in mediumship.

Tymn is a spiritualist, he believes that spirits can be invoked in dark séance rooms to take over people's brains and bodies to communicate through them in trance sessions (even though he has never experienced or witnessed this himself. He seems to accept many of the old Victorian reports of mediums communicating with spirits in seances at face value and claims they are genuine as "scientific evidence" for life after death.

Tymn claims every historical medium was genuine.

Tymn avoids mentioning mediums who have self-confessed to fraud such as Frederick Tansley Munnings and William Roy. He also ignores magicians such as the Davenport brothers and Anna Eva Fay who fooled people into believing they could communicate with spirits.

​

I post this knowing that you won't even bother reading the absolute rebuttals of your sources and beliefs. But, there is always the peanut gallery.

 

[ecco]

.Likewise, in regards to "proving", I doubt we would send astronauts into space on a rocket ship that wasn't previously tested as "proven" to work.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Apparently, you also do not understand the scientific concepts of proof and evidence. Or, perhaps, you just like to argue.

As to your analogy of spaceships being "proven" to be safe, I have one word for you: Columbia.

 

[Cooky]

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

Apparently, you also do not understand the scientific concepts of proof and evidence. Or, perhaps, you just like to argue.

As to your analogy of spaceships being "proven" to be safe, I have one word for you: Columbia.

LOL... So you think they build space shuttles on unproven ideas.

...You don't seem to understand science at all.