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Belief and Imagination

Workman

UNIQUE
No. Instead, just expressing a personal prefence - an opinion.
I don't like public transport because I don't like crowds. And public transport, especially during rush hours, is SOOO crowded that you have barely enough room to stand. It gives me nausia. I need my personal space. I don't like people breathing my air. Next to that, I just enjoy driving. It calms my nerves. I think it's relaxing - even when I get stuck in traffic jams. I put on some music and I enjoy the ride.

This is a personal preference. It has nothing to do with belief, blind faith, worship, or whatever they hell you want to equate that with.
And yet and still have all is caused from FAITH IN BELIEVING!
Personal Preferences!..I have already explained how it’s caused..because you favour driving car..your processing of your own free space, your own breath of Air, with in your own self comfort zone..and will describe your dark personality...‘a very SELFISH being.

So than you say of your dislikes in travelling, and it makes a lot of sense..because of the Faiths in believing of your choosing(choices) in life..it will ALL define in ‘PERSONAL PREFERENCES’ and to be LIKELY of your personality.
Making you a person for yourself ONLY..if you to come out of comfort zone..nerves will kick in, nausia will creep into you..all will be of your discomfort. Why? Because of your faith in believing..has made you ONLY A selfish being..therefore you will run into problems in your being, from choices you have made it your own way..instead of working all around yourself. And you will never ever get to know or experience ‘how to live the happy life’.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
I'm well aware of how it works.
I also understand the difference between "belief" and "knowledge".
Between "blind faith" and "reasonable expectations based on track records".
Between "worship" and just "mere opinion / preferences".

You on the other hand.....
Yes I am on the other hand..ALWAYS, but like yourself..you DONT see of any OTHER hand!.for you don’t have another!.YOUR HAND only sees itself selfishness..and carries in it..EMPTY!
And From all this happening to you was all a make from a (direction) of “FAITH”. And as you keep on rejecting in it..has Mis-Lead your being in person..living Blindly! With
Making you from of ‘BLIND FAITH’!
I’m Sorry to break it to you!.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
“Where does it show my post saying of anything about chicken or beef? Exactly NO where! “

Are you familiar with the concept of analogy?
See that's the thing about logic...

If your "reasoning" here applies to expressing ones preference of driving over being driven, then that same logic also applies to expressing ones preference of chicken over beef.

You seem upset because I, quite easily, showed how irrational your nonsense is...

I won’t leave you hanging, because I like you..you make me happy with laughter. So in answering your GOOD question with chicken over beef..
No, you don’t worship chickens and than eat it! don’t you think it’s quite stupid looking at it that way?? Only an arrogance will think this way..

Then why does the same not apply when I express preference of driving a car for transportation. Remember? You said in response:

Because you have chosen the car as an easier way for you..your belief and faith in it has worshiped it(car)

So, what's that about?

However, It means you worship its taste,

o, for crying out loud.................

upload_2019-5-14_12-5-26.png


In other words; you favour its taste(flavour) of chicken over beef.
No, "to worship" and "to fafour" are not synonymous.... :rolleyes:

And again YES...is caused from faith in believing.


lol

owkay then.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
So now you also think you know anything at all about my life?

:rolleyes:

ps: I suggest you stop with the badly hidden ad hominims and your self-righteous attitude.
Have you been listening in anything I’m saying at all!..

I don’t think!.. I won’t know!..
But I DO!..UNDERSTAND in how it works!
Thus I had explained in your own person to you..for thus! I know you better than yourself!..
And its best thing in understanding of it..it shows of their symptoms like; its language is deny all, arrogance, it’s pride, its showings of ego..and also its ease of lying.
Since denial is the Only thing you know..you haven’t YET made a dent in arguing of any of your own or my reasoning being..nor you haven’t given or explained of how your methods in behind your meanings be it’s..Co..for its working!

To answer your question!
Do you?

Ps..I only wanted to discuss our differences of wordings of their TRUE meanings..I have showed you my understanding..all I hear in your part is deny all, it doesn’t make sense to you, or a name calling of such being religious..all I keep hearing is excuses!. The point is..when your ready, I’m still waiting for your argue in debate of meanings..unless.. I’ll understand if you decide not to bother..it’s a common thing in its symptoms..ignoring it!(showing themselves a EASY way out!
 

Workman

UNIQUE
Are you familiar with the concept of analogy?
See that's the thing about logic...

If your "reasoning" here applies to expressing ones preference of driving over being driven, then that same logic also applies to expressing ones preference of chicken over beef.

You seem upset because I, quite easily, showed how irrational your nonsense is...



Then why does the same not apply when I express preference of driving a car for transportation. Remember? You said in response:



So, what's that about?



o, for crying out loud.................

View attachment 29035


No, "to worship" and "to fafour" are not synonymous.... :rolleyes:




lol

owkay then.
Lol..you wish I was upset! Truth is I don’t get upset with meanings of not mattering. In fact! I don’t feel anything but inner peace! When you know this then you’ll know what’s not REAL!..I am not here to prove you wrong!..No..I am here to show you why your wrong!..but for my end! I only know of what I believe in..and the feeling of my understanding of things is..is that GOOD that I believe in a GOD! As for you!.you carry on with yours..I don’t doubt what you believe..because it’s truth is YOU and your words..your questions are not worthy to be answered..by anyone but yourself!..hopefully in your aging will hold you of being more wiser!.. but until then, your going round in circles.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
No.

I, for example, don't think about how to test if I want chicken or beef for dinner.

But we're not talking about "decisions". We're talking about claims about reality and how to find out which are accurate and which aren't.
We're talking about "does X exist and is it responsible for Y?". Those are pretty much scientific questions.

As in: the scientific method is a very usefull and succesfull way to investigate, and get answers to, such types of questions.

How else do you propose to distinguish truth from fiction concerning claims about physical reality, if not by testing it against physical reality?

I totally agree. But how many of us are spending time actually using the scientific method on a day to day, hour by hour basis? What percentage of our time are we to be scientists? And as the events of each passing moment come and go and present us with opportunities to ignore or attend, to respond or absorb, to speak or remain silent...to change what it is we were planning to do next...how often are we performing an experiment to test the truth and how often is there simply no experiment that can rationally help us to process what is before us in our conscious experience?

Should I browse the internet or read a book? Should I start making dinner or order pizza? Did I say something wrong to my co-worker today or did they have something else on their mind?

The answers to questions like these involve more value decisions than they do scientific ones. In fact I suspect our lives are much more filled with a need to sort out what is meaningful or practical than it is what is scientific. Our extrascientific choices and opinions are much more to do with what we understand is true of ourselves and our values and preferences than it is about what is objectively true. Maybe in today's reality with the internet we can actually reach out to our phones and look up an article or even scientific paper that might address a question we have and in turn determine a choice, but for the most part we have to weigh in some other way what we are going to do with the limited resources of time, money and energy that we have to achieve our short and long terms goals to maintain our personal psychological balance, to maintain our relationships, to maintain our home economics and to otherwise secure our needs and the needs of those in our care and in our responsibility.

For me choosing what to eat and when is a major consideration. Science certainly plays a part in that decision, but how that science is understood in a given time and place and how that science is molded by the voices (government and big business) that tell us what is good food shapes what we know and have to choose from. What we experience in our own bodies sometimes against the very dictates of what is claimed as science-based is another factor we all might have to deal with. Then there is the legacy of how food fit into our lives growing up, our sense of family and safety...our sense of self-worth...all these things impact what it is we choose to do and how easy it is for us to choose it. The cost of food that avoids carbs is at least double the price of equivalent foods that doesn't. This takes its toll especially when we have conflicting information and experience and not enough resources or time to sort it all out. Usually we don't wake up until something critical starts to happen and even then that critical warning might not be enough.

Do we just condemn those who can't make the right choices in life? That only works for the dismissive and arrogant. How does one find their way to eating what they know is more objectively right for their bodies? How do they find the strength to overcome a lifetime of incorrect information that is, perhaps, still supported by one's family and local grocery stores in order make better choices? When your body says "yes" but your mind says "no" but your mind rests on the needs and expectations of the body...how to do actually do what some science somewhere says you should?

Religion and religious communities teach us how to focus on what is important in our lives, how to handle temptation, how to reach out for help emotionally when we need to, how to think of stories that remind us of how life is a struggle and that there is hope ahead. Hopefully, although far too often this is not the case, those stories will incorporate the latest science. Or maybe some new dietitian can tell us his or her story of how they weighed 300 lbs but now they run marathons...and not knowing whether these people are telling a good scientific story or not or if we can adapt whatever it is they found in themselves to our own psychological lives, we have to choose whether to try what they recommend.

The best diet gurus are those that are best backed by science...but why haven't they risen to the top and why aren't we all through successive generations simply progressing forward in our overall physical health and well-being? It seems that we have a lot of work to do just to drum up the motivation to find our own way through the bits of science we get immersed in a much more complex world of real choices and social influences. How do we negotiate this flood of reality and make the real choices that effect the change we want...and don't want in our lives?
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
8000 years of doing that brought us witch hunts, some construction technology and the wheel.

300 years of test-based scientific inquiry, enabled us to build machines that will fly us to the moon and back and communication technology that allows us to talk to someone, with speech and vision, at the other side of the world at light speed.

I think it's quite clear what the most reliable method is to find out how reality works. And it's not sitting on your knees with your hands clapped together..... :rolleyes:
That is certainly true. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I will accordingy now make a promise to you that I will never again rely on a God to guide me to personal safety and salvation by resisting the persecution that has seemingly been mounted on me by the UK State. I must try and do all the resisting myself through my truth-based intelligence and wisdom because whether or not God exists for me, satya-advaita was a genuine religion that worked for me or so I believed. But that God works in mysterious ways may yet turn out to be the greatest man-generated delusion of all but He does apparently exist and has communicated with me in the past seemingly whenever He felt like it. This was not good-enough to save me. I know that for certain now. I thought He arranged things for me to be able to survive the State-organised persecution. But I remain a mental patient and truth has been elusive to me in this regard. I do not know for certain whether the UK State persecuted me. Whatever God I found, it was not good enough for me as the UK State still classifies me as a mental patient as evidenced by the appointments arranged for me to see the Consultant Psychiatrist.

I am therefore preparing to see my Consultant Psychiatrist because Kent Police and the Independent Office for Police Conduct have not replied to my representations alleging State-organised persecution for which I demanded £10 million in damages and compensation from the UK Treasury. Only the Consultant Psychiatrist will now tell me whether this allegation was true or delusional after sifting through the evidence. I am seeing her on Friday 17 May 2019, 10.45 am. I have offered her my 25 Diary and Case Files to examine as evidence to determine whether a God has been communicating with me or not and if so whether it was a benevolent God looking after me alone or whether He did what He did for the betterment of humanity as a whole. The Consultant Psychiatrist will have an easier job than I have had with my personal bias to figure this out and may therefore retain me on antipsychotic medication risperidone and anti-depressant medication sertraline to be allowed to live in the Community. It remains to be seen. I will accept the decision, and if she says there was no God I will abandon my religion of satya-advaita.

Have you read my Blog? - google Shantanu Panigrahi if you want further details of my struggle with mental illness and in particular the impact of God-delusion on how a human life can be destroyed.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And yet and still have all is caused from FAITH IN BELIEVING!

This makes no sense to me at all.
First, what does "faith in believing" even mean?
Secondly, what does it have to do with personal preferences?

Personal Preferences!..I have already explained how it’s caused..because you favour driving car..your processing of your own free space, your own breath of Air, with in your own self comfort zone..and will describe your dark personality...‘a very SELFISH being.

No, that's not what selfish means.

And again with the insults....

So than you say of your dislikes in travelling, and it makes a lot of sense..because of the Faiths in believing of your choosing(choices) in life..it will ALL define in ‘PERSONAL PREFERENCES’ and to be LIKELY of your personality.
Making you a person for yourself ONLY..if you to come out of comfort zone..nerves will kick in, nausia will creep into you..all will be of your discomfort. Why? Because of your faith in believing..has made you ONLY A selfish being..therefore you will run into problems in your being, from choices you have made it your own way..instead of working all around yourself. And you will never ever get to know or experience ‘how to live the happy life’.

So prefering chicken over beef, makes you selfish, because of "faith in believing" that one has preferences.

Or something like that.

Uh-huh.

Right.

Ok.

:rolleyes:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Yes I am on the other hand..ALWAYS, but like yourself..you DONT see of any OTHER hand!.for you don’t have another!.YOUR HAND only sees itself selfishness..and carries in it..EMPTY!
And From all this happening to you was all a make from a (direction) of “FAITH”. And as you keep on rejecting in it..has Mis-Lead your being in person..living Blindly! With
Making you from of ‘BLIND FAITH’!
I’m Sorry to break it to you!.

I'm sorry you can't seem to manage to make any sense.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
are belief and imagination necessarily a negative thing??

or can they in fact be helpful and healthy?

Without intuition and imagination we would not have many thought experiments. But imagination is also the cause of fears in us.

Belief, without supporting logical and/or experiential evidence is negative. For example the belief that a conscious living self is a product of interaction between inert chemicals has no evidence. People think that they are being rational for clinging to that belief. Similarly, belief in an anthropological God has no evidence.

But faith/trust is often based on logical analysis and experience. Faith in one’s self can only be positive.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
And again with the denial..
In this case!..I lay myself to rest!
Until you come up with a proper answer in its reasoning instead of looking for questions. Dont spend too much time with questions..you’ll get lost in there!..
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I totally agree. But how many of us are spending time actually using the scientific method on a day to day, hour by hour basis?

We use scientific principles all the time, whenever we're trying to figure something out.
When we are trying to fix something and aren't sure how it works, we'll first try and find out how it does. And we won't just be assuming things because then we won't come up with viable solutions. No, we'll study the thing, come up with ideas and actually test them. And step by step, we'll solve the puzzle and get it fixed.

It's how we roll everyday.

Having said that, obviously we don't personally investigate everything personally. We train and pay professionals to that. And those people even also only work in their small area of expertise.

Knowing how science works, we can trust those results without the need of retesting it personally ourselves.
Also, we actually DO test them in a way. For example, every single GPS receiver in the world, is actually a test of PLENTY of scientific theories that underpin that technology. If those theories are wrong, GPS shouldn't be working.

What percentage of our time are we to be scientists? And as the events of each passing moment come and go and present us with opportunities to ignore or attend, to respond or absorb, to speak or remain silent...to change what it is we were planning to do next...how often are we performing an experiment to test the truth and how often is there simply no experiment that can rationally help us to process what is before us in our conscious experience?

This is again talking about different subjects.
We're not talking about situations where one has to make snap decisions based on limited information.

And for the record, when it comes to such decisions, you ask the question "what is more likely". And the vaue of "likely" will be determined by the data, evidence and knowledge at your disposal.


The answers to questions like these involve more value decisions than they do scientific ones. In fact I suspect our lives are much more filled with a need to sort out what is meaningful or practical than it is what is scientific. Our extrascientific choices and opinions are much more to do with what we understand is true of ourselves and our values and preferences than it is about what is objectively true. Maybe in today's reality with the internet we can actually reach out to our phones and look up an article or even scientific paper that might address a question we have and in turn determine a choice, but for the most part we have to weigh in some other way what we are going to do with the limited resources of time, money and energy that we have to achieve our short and long terms goals to maintain our personal psychological balance, to maintain our relationships, to maintain our home economics and to otherwise secure our needs and the needs of those in our care and in our responsibility.

For me choosing what to eat and when is a major consideration. Science certainly plays a part in that decision, but how that science is understood in a given time and place and how that science is molded by the voices (government and big business) that tell us what is good food shapes what we know and have to choose from. What we experience in our own bodies sometimes against the very dictates of what is claimed as science-based is another factor we all might have to deal with. Then there is the legacy of how food fit into our lives growing up, our sense of family and safety...our sense of self-worth...all these things impact what it is we choose to do and how easy it is for us to choose it. The cost of food that avoids carbs is at least double the price of equivalent foods that doesn't. This takes its toll especially when we have conflicting information and experience and not enough resources or time to sort it all out. Usually we don't wake up until something critical starts to happen and even then that critical warning might not be enough.

Do we just condemn those who can't make the right choices in life? That only works for the dismissive and arrogant. How does one find their way to eating what they know is more objectively right for their bodies? How do they find the strength to overcome a lifetime of incorrect information that is, perhaps, still supported by one's family and local grocery stores in order make better choices? When your body says "yes" but your mind says "no" but your mind rests on the needs and expectations of the body...how to do actually do what some science somewhere says you should?

Religion and religious communities teach us how to focus on what is important in our lives, how to handle temptation, how to reach out for help emotionally when we need to, how to think of stories that remind us of how life is a struggle and that there is hope ahead. Hopefully, although far too often this is not the case, those stories will incorporate the latest science. Or maybe some new dietitian can tell us his or her story of how they weighed 300 lbs but now they run marathons...and not knowing whether these people are telling a good scientific story or not or if we can adapt whatever it is they found in themselves to our own psychological lives, we have to choose whether to try what they recommend.

The best diet gurus are those that are best backed by science...but why haven't they risen to the top and why aren't we all through successive generations simply progressing forward in our overall physical health and well-being? It seems that we have a lot of work to do just to drum up the motivation to find our own way through the bits of science we get immersed in a much more complex world of real choices and social influences. How do we negotiate this flood of reality and make the real choices that effect the change we want...and don't want in our lives?

While well written, none of this has anything to do with scientific questions of existance concerning reality.

The claim "x exists and is responsible for y" is either true or false. It's not something where there isn't really a "correct" answer, but rather pro's and con's and a subjective opinion about what weighs most. Neither is it about "should I do this or that". Neither is it about "did I hurt his feelings?".


No. It's either true or false.
X either exists or it doesn't.
And if yes, it's either responsible for Y or it isn't.

The question is: how do we find out if X exists?
And if we found out that yes, X exists, how do we find out if it's responsible for Y?

These are scientific questions that can, and should, be investigated scientifically.


The problem is that the X and Y that theism likes to insert, are defined in unfalsifiable ways. Meaning that there is not there to investigate.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
That is certainly true. Thank you for pointing this out to me. I will accordingy now make a promise to you that I will never again rely on a God to guide me to personal safety and salvation by resisting the persecution that has seemingly been mounted on me by the UK State. I must try and do all the resisting myself through my truth-based intelligence and wisdom because whether or not God exists for me, satya-advaita was a genuine religion that worked for me or so I believed. But that God works in mysterious ways may yet turn out to be the greatest man-generated delusion of all but He does apparently exist and has communicated with me in the past seemingly whenever He felt like it. This was not good-enough to save me. I know that for certain now. I thought He arranged things for me to be able to survive the State-organised persecution. But I remain a mental patient and truth has been elusive to me in this regard. I do not know for certain whether the UK State persecuted me. Whatever God I found, it was not good enough for me as the UK State still classifies me as a mental patient as evidenced by the appointments arranged for me to see the Consultant Psychiatrist.

I am therefore preparing to see my Consultant Psychiatrist because Kent Police and the Independent Office for Police Conduct have not replied to my representations alleging State-organised persecution for which I demanded £10 million in damages and compensation from the UK Treasury. Only the Consultant Psychiatrist will now tell me whether this allegation was true or delusional after sifting through the evidence. I am seeing her on Friday 17 May 2019, 10.45 am. I have offered her my 25 Diary and Case Files to examine as evidence to determine whether a God has been communicating with me or not and if so whether it was a benevolent God looking after me alone or whether He did what He did for the betterment of humanity as a whole. The Consultant Psychiatrist will have an easier job than I have had with my personal bias to figure this out and may therefore retain me on antipsychotic medication risperidone and anti-depressant medication sertraline to be allowed to live in the Community. It remains to be seen. I will accept the decision, and if she says there was no God I will abandon my religion of satya-advaita.

Have you read my Blog? - google Shantanu Panigrahi if you want further details of my struggle with mental illness and in particular the impact of God-delusion on how a human life can be destroyed.

Unfortunatly, I have first hand experience with dealing with someone close who suffered from multiple psychosis episodes. I know and understand how disruptive, confusing it is and how hard it hits the overall mental state of the patient.

I hope you get well soon.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And again with the denial..
In this case!..I lay myself to rest!
Until you come up with a proper answer in its reasoning instead of looking for questions. Dont spend too much time with questions..you’ll get lost in there!..
When I don't understand something, I tend to ask questions.

You should try it sometime.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
This makes no sense to me at all.
First, what does "faith in believing" even mean?
Secondly, what does it have to do with personal preferences?
Now how hard was that asking?
Faith is ONLY controlled from the mind..faith means a directing of a choice!

Belief is an understanding from your faith..if your likings of a something that makes you happy(anything)..because of the happiness you feel towards it!..you than start to believe in it more..making it part of you personal references. And in its ways you depend on it..rely on it..look forward on it..because you have an worship over it. We all have our own different ways of living..there is nothing wrong with the word worship..unless you feel defensive by its meaning.
 

Workman

UNIQUE
When I don't understand something, I tend to ask questions.

You should try it sometime.
Don’t get me wrong!..I tried many many times..and it wasn’t until I asked the right question..later found out the reason of it..so I stoped asking! And than doing it!..this is why I tell you!..you can always asks questions..but if even with its confusion..WILL YOU MAKE AN EFFORT OF TRYING TO FIND ITS ANSWER!
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Now how hard was that asking?
Faith is ONLY controlled from the mind..faith means a directing of a choice!

Belief is an understanding from your faith..if your likings of a something that makes you happy(anything)..because of the happiness you feel towards it!..you than start to believe in it more..making it part of you personal references. And in its ways you depend on it..rely on it..look forward on it..because you have an worship over it. We all have our own different ways of living..there is nothing wrong with the word worship..unless you feel defensive by its meaning.

Still not completely sure what you are saying.
However, one thing seems crystal clear: you are using these words completely differently then the rest of the world.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Unfortunatly, I have first hand experience with dealing with someone close who suffered from multiple psychosis episodes. I know and understand how disruptive, confusing it is and how hard it hits the overall mental state of the patient.

I hope you get well soon.
Thank you: I will take my medications and relate my experiences in my Blog and in Religious Forums. This is because I am primarily concerned with Truth Accommodation which I find very difficult to abandon. This so called 'religion of satya-advaita or truth accommodation' is the same as what the Psychiatrists have been describing as Persistent Delusional Disorder that I suffer from. I must consult a perceived God through the digital clock checking mechanism. Medication helps me to have some degree of control over events and incidents in my life. I also rely on the good nature of my wife who cares for me deeply. Perhaps I need psychological therapy that the Psychiatrist can offer me at this appointment. I am 62 years of age and perhaps it is not too late for me to live to the reality that the State says is correct.
 
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