Being "spiritual": No spirit needed

[1137]

It is not rare that someone on here comes around saying how an atheist should be spiritual, just accept God, souls, etc. Live a spiritual life, it's healthy. Stuff like that. Well, maybe the word "spiritual" needs to be defined more clearer. I think of spirituality as personally seeking peace / connection / whatever with something greater and/or deeper than yourself. Well I may not believe in God, angels, demons, a soul, prayer, any holy, works, any mythologies, anything science rejects, etc etc etc, but how's that mean I am not getting in touch with something deeper.

I don't want to seem like we're discussing quantum mysticism here, but theories such as String theory seem to support the existence of something deeper, like the Tao of Taoism. We are constantly learning how all reality is made of vibrations, but vibrations are caused. What causes them, who knows. It doesn't need to be God, nothing supports whatever may exist is a God. We don't need to have souls, we can accept consciousness is a product of the brain, life has no reason for existing, evolution is true, love is chemical reactions, etc. None of this is needed to live a "spiritual" life, they are just unnecessary comfort mechanisms to help us feel we understand. But what is so wrong with not understanding? Even Stephen Hawkin doubts we'll get a theory of everything.

Discuss.

 

[Madhuri]

I think the word 'spiritual' is meaning to connect with spirit...or some similar definition. The difficulty with definitions is that they are created within certain contexts that may not be relevant to you.

When I, coming from eastern religion, think about religion vs spirituality, I see religion as the external performance of worship whereas spirituality is the internal worship. And now again we enter cloudy waters because worship can be defined in many ways. I would define worship as the forming of love and devotion. In Hindu religions, meditation or seeking peace/connection within one's self is very much a form of worship.

And so I agree with you that "personally seeking peace / connection / whatever with something greatet and/or deeper than yourself" is spiritual.

 

[Penumbra]

I don't consider myself to be very spiritual.

To be honest, most things that are described to be "deep", don't sound very deep to me. Deep is sort of a relative concept.

I find philosophy useful, and I think scientists should of course pursue knowledge as much as possible, though I don't really see how I can connect with strings and such.

 

[1137]

I don't consider myself to be very spiritual.

To be honest, most things that are described to be "deep", don't sound very deep to me. Deep is sort of a relative concept.

I find philosophy useful, and I think scientists should of course pursue knowledge as much as possible, though I don't really see how I can connect with strings and such.

The "Strings" are just vibration. Whatever is underlying that would be infinite, interconnecting all. Ever had a mystical experience, that feeling of oneness? Nothing to contradict that.

 

[Madhuri]

The "Strings" are just vibration. Whatever is underlying that would be infinite, interconnecting all. Ever had a mystical experience, that feeling of oneness? Nothing to contradict that.

You sound like a Hindu

 

[1137]

You sound like a Hindu

Haha I've always liked Hinduism, and apparently you can be an atheistic Hindu.

 

[Madhuri]

Haha I've always liked Hinduism, and apparently you can be an atheistic Hindu.

That is correct. Although when you get very deep into Hinduism, labels like 'atheist' and 'theist' become redundant.

 

[1137]

That is correct. Although when you get very deep into Hinduism, labels like 'atheist' and 'theist' become redundant.

If you wouldn't mind shooting me a PM, giving me some Hindu philosophy from someone who actually follows it, I'd be very thankful.

 

[Penumbra]

The "Strings" are just vibration. Whatever is underlying that would be infinite, interconnecting all.

I don't really see how that's applicable, though.

There are different types of connections. Being connected due to things like a) we're all made of stardust, b) we're all apparently parts of what was once a singularity, c) quantum stuff, doesn't necessarily allow the transfer of information between these supposedly connected things.

Ever had a mystical experience, that feeling of oneness? Nothing to contradict that.

No, I have not.

But seeing as how people do have those experiences sometimes, and they can be brought on by chemical substances as well, I don't think there's a quantum aspect to them (any more than that everything is quantum).

I think there's a difference between actual oneness, and the perception of oneness.

If a person feels oneness, but demonstrably only experiences that which is available to their bodily senses and local area, then they're not actually receiving any information from this supposed oneness. If someone can have a mystical experience and then wake up and tell me what I was doing while they were in their experience, then that would be impressive. That would be a connection. But if they merely disabled whatever part of the brain makes sense of their bodily relationship in the environment, and gets a personal feeling of oneness but does not gain any information from the rest of the world, then that would just be the perception of oneness rather than actual oneness.

 

[1137]

I don't really see how that's applicable, though.

There are different types of connections. Being connected due to things like a) we're all made of stardust, b) we're all apparently parts of what was once a singularity, c) quantum stuff, doesn't necessarily allow the transfer of information between these supposedly connected things.

I never said it was necessarily meaningfull. It's all about awareness, pushing your consciousness as deep as you can to hopefully live a more balanced and peaceful life.

No, I have not.

But seeing as how people do have those experiences sometimes, and they can be brought on by chemical substances as well, I don't think there's a quantum aspect to them (any more than that everything is quantum).

I think there's a difference between actual oneness, and the perception of oneness.

If a person feels oneness, but demonstrably only experiences that which is available to their bodily senses and local area, then they're not actually receiving any information from this supposed oneness. If someone can have a mystical experience and then wake up and tell me what I was doing while they were in their experience, then that would be impressive. That would be a connection. But if they merely disabled whatever part of the brain makes sense of their bodily relationship in the environment, and gets a personal feeling of oneness but does not gain any information from the rest of the world, then that would just be the perception of oneness rather than actual oneness.

I don't by the chemical reaction explanation because there is nothing inducing the reaction. If you are high it is hardly a veridical experience. To be going about something sober and all of a sudden experience something that cannot he reproduced and explained in words, that changes a person's perspective. You can explain what happens on a drug trip at least to some ability.

I am not suggesting anything conscoius, caring, intelligent, etc is existing, no magical floating out of your body and such. We are talking about a completely internal, uninduced experience that has nothing to do with the senses. There are experiences where people see what is going on in the room around them, where groups bring about storms with ritual, things of the sort. It isn't necessarily supernatural, just pushing pushing your awareness.

 

[1137]

We're not talking about anything more than being aware at a deeper level.

 

[Penumbra]

I never said it was necessarily meaningfull. It's all about awareness, pushing your consciousness as deep as you can to hopefully live a more balanced and peaceful life.

I don't by the chemical reaction explanation because there is nothing inducing the reaction. If you are high it is hardly a veridical experience. To be going about something sober and all of a sudden experience something that cannot he reproduced and explained in words, that changes a person's perspective. You can explain what happens on a drug trip at least to some ability.

I am not suggesting anything conscoius, caring, intelligent, etc is existing, no magical floating out of your body and such. We are talking about a completely internal, uninduced experience that has nothing to do with the senses. There are experiences where people see what is going on in the room around them, where groups bring about storms with ritual, things of the sort. It isn't necessarily supernatural, just pushing pushing your awareness.

At any given time, the amount of computation going on in a conscious brain is immense. All the stuff we take for granted, like our ability to perceive spacetime around ourselves and our ability to move through it, has to be constructed and made sense of, by the brain. Everything we see is so highly filtered, so organized, that we take it for granted.

Some parts of the brain that allow for this organization can be damaged, which causes major problems.

On a more temporary basis, through meditation or usage of substances, people can apparently experience oneness. And if it's completely internal, I don't see how it's oneness, because how can you be one with everything else if the experience is all internal? That would be the perception of oneness, not actual oneness.

One sort of humorous thing I observe is that some people seem to have a mystical experience out of nowhere, with no training for it, and then they go on to try to teach people how to train to have that type of mystical experience.

We're not talking about anything more than being aware at a deeper level.

What is "deep"? Why not just call it having a different type of awareness?

If you're aware at a deeper level, can you turn it into information? Does this awareness translate into something of value? What sort of information do you come back with, after being aware at this deeper level?

 

[1137]

At any given time, the amount of computation going on in a conscious brain is immense. All the stuff we take for granted, like our ability to perceive spacetime around ourselves and our ability to move through it, has to be constructed and made sense of, by the brain. Everything we see is so highly filtered, so organized, that we take it for granted.

Some parts of the brain that allow for this organization can be damaged, which causes major problems.

On a more temporary basis, through meditation or usage of substances, people can apparently experience oneness. And if it's completely internal, I don't see how it's oneness, because how can you be one with everything else if the experience is all internal? That would be the perception of oneness, not actual oneness.

One sort of humorous thing I observe is that some people seem to have a mystical experience out of nowhere, with no training for it, and then they go on to try to teach people how to train to have that type of mystical experience.

Drugs are drugs, they do not count as valid mystical experiences. It is against logic to deny something greater / deeper exists. To believe in things existing out of nothing is to renounce logic. But nothing shows this to be a God. If you are suggesting that those who have mystical experience are either high or have brain damage, that is very closed minded.

As for teaching others to have a mystical experiece, such a thing would be absurd. How can you teach people to have an experience that cannot even be explained?

What is "deep"? Why not just call it having a different type of awareness?

If you're aware at a deeper level, can you turn it into information? Does this awareness translate into something of value? What sort of information do you come back with, after being aware at this deeper level?

I'm not sure where to go from here if we're going to get caught up on words. I think you can piece together the concept of "deep". Who knows if we can turn this into information? We haven't studied it directly. But there is no doubt that animals, humans included, can connect through more than just the physical and verbal.

I never said there is anything to come back from. We know factually that things such as meditation are good for one's health. What is meditation? Rather than focusing externally and into the future and past, we come into the moment, let the illusion of time slip away, feel (not percieve) the connection between us and our surroundings. How can we percieve something that cannot be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt physically?

Sure, OBEs are explainable. We know events that happen around us because they are stored in the mind, we hear someone talking about them, whatever. I have never had a satisfying explanation for mystical experiences.

Is this necessary? No. Does it have to be done? No. Is there reward / punishment? No. The answer to why is why not?

 

[1137]

If you know anything about the Tao, you know it is indescribable. So to even say it is not conscious is to be talking about something that is not the Tao, not what the Tao is. I see no harm and admitting there is something we will never fully understand. It would be terrible to stop learning and achieving at one point. So it is kind of hard to to discuss experiences that cannot be explained and are only valid to thlse that have them, and using that to explain something we cannot even think about. That is why I hesitated before starting this thread, before I ever have this discussion. We want to know everything and we want to now. Impatience won't help us understand.

 

[Penumbra]

Drugs are drugs, they do not count as valid mystical experiences. It is against logic to deny something greater / deeper exists. To believe in things existing out of nothing is to renounce logic. But nothing shows this to be a God. If you are suggesting that those who have mystical experience are either high or have brain damage, that is very closed minded.

As for teaching others to have a mystical experiece, such a thing would be absurd. How can you teach people to have an experience that cannot even be explained?

I'm not sure where to go from here if we're going to get caught up on words. I think you can piece together the concept of "deep". Who knows if we can turn this into information? We haven't studied it directly. But there is no doubt that animals, humans included, can connect through more than just the physical and verbal.

I never said there is anything to come back from. We know factually that things such as meditation are good for one's health. What is meditation? Rather than focusing externally and into the future and past, we come into the moment, let the illusion of time slip away, feel (not percieve) the connection between us and our surroundings. How can we percieve something that cannot be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or felt physically?

Sure, OBEs are explainable. We know events that happen around us because they are stored in the mind, we hear someone talking about them, whatever. I have never had a satisfying explanation for mystical experiences.

Is this necessary? No. Does it have to be done? No. Is there reward / punishment? No. The answer to why is why not?

I don't think between the two of us in this conversation, that I'm displaying close-mindedness. Re-read our exchange in this thread and see what I mean. You're outright rejecting explanations without presenting clearer ones. Basically, if a car is acting interestingly, I'm referring to various parts of the engine or transmission that are involved in such things, and you're bringing string theory into it.

Making vague references or connections to quantum mechanics is pseudo-science, and a popular thing to do these days.

I'm not saying that those who have mystical experiences are either high or have brain damage. No need to make it sound so negative. But being high and having brain damage, or skillfully meditating, change the brain. The common ingredient here is the brain- and there are different ways to affect it from within or from external means.

-Substances can indeed cause mystical experiences, oneness, etc. Substances have been important parts in many religions for thousands of years.

-Scientific studies have produced useful evidence linking brain lesions in certain areas, to higher instances of feelings of transcendence or mystical experiences.
http://download.cell.com/neuron/pdf/PIIS0896627310000528.pdf?intermediate=true
(And the point is not to say, "mystics have brain damage!", it's to say, here are the portions of the brain that may be involved in such experiences, and that they are potentially altered in different ways such as through substances, damage, or training.)

-The parietal lobe of the brain controls our perception of orientation in space time. That is, it allows us to interact with our environment in an organized way. In some studies, meditating monks were shown to have reduced activity in their parietal lobe. If parts of the parietal lobe were even more reduced in activity than this, in a more intense mystical experience, then it would not be surprising to have subjects report feelings of oneness, reports of different perceptions of space and time or the reported disappearance of them altogether, and report a lack of difference between the subject and other objects.

So going back to the earlier point, there's a difference between the perception of oneness, and an actual exchange of information and merger of identities into some concept of true oneness. If a person can voluntarily or involuntarily reduce or alter the part of brain activity that separates their subject/object perception, then they may feel that they are one with everything, but they won't be able to demonstrate any sort of gained information from anything that their physical body wouldn't have been able to receive normally.

 

[Iti oj]

Good post. I agree.I think im a spiritual atheist myself

 

[1137]

I actually don't even care anymore. All these discussions we have seem completely pointless. I'm one of the only people I've noticed to change their beliefs based on we learn in these conversations. I used to be a Gnostic for Christ's sake. But in all other cases it's banging your head agaisnt the wall.

I'm not saying mystical experiences aren't from the brain, I'm just saying it hardly matters anymore.

 

[Iti oj]

I actually don't even care anymore. All these discussions we have seem completely pointless. I'm one of the only people I've noticed to change their beliefs based on we learn in these conversations. I used to be a Gnostic for Christ's sake. But in all other cases it's banging your head agaisnt the wall.

I'm not saying mystical experiences aren't from the brain, I'm just saying it hardly matters anymore.

That flys against every thing I have experienced on forums though I must admit I have seen a lot less here then I have at other forums...and its not always about change but understanding. Heck I change a lot since joing here.

 

[Penumbra]

I actually don't even care anymore. All these discussions we have seem completely pointless. I'm one of the only people I've noticed to change their beliefs based on we learn in these conversations. I used to be a Gnostic for Christ's sake. But in all other cases it's banging your head agaisnt the wall.

I'm not saying mystical experiences aren't from the brain, I'm just saying it hardly matters anymore.

I don't particularly see a reason to get mad about this.

Bringing up spirituality, Taoism, and linking them to string theory, and then asking people to discuss- what precisely were you looking for?

It seems to happen a lot in recent years where people will link spiritual concepts to quantum mechanics without any real scientific reference points.

So pointing out how strings don't seem to connect things much in any practical or experiential sense, and pointing out that mystic experiences or experiences of oneness need not require or be related to quantum mechanics (unless one can put forth some sort of good set of arguments linking them) and instead have clearer links to less theoretical and larger brain structures, is an appropriate set of discussion points.

 

[idea]

I think spirituality is having an awareness and being connected with the non-material world. Some people say if you can't touch it/see it then it does not exist, but there is more to the universe than just matter and energy...

information, for example, is a real entity that is transmitted via energy and matter, but is not made up of matter and energy. A piece of paper with scribbles, vs. one with words - can both contain the same amount of matter and energy, but one contains information. Information does not weigh anything, or contain some amount of energy - it's immaterial.

The laws of nature are a real entity which exist without being made up of matter or energy, they act upon matter and energy, and are viewable through matter and energy, but belong to a different sphere.

Intelligence/spirit/conscience/mind/thought/will - call it what you will, but it exists. Like information, and the laws of physics, intelligence act upon matter and energy, but are not made up of matter and energy... the recently deceased and the alive can both have the same amount of matter and energy, same material structures and compositions - the only difference between the two is a loss of intelligence to operate the matter...

from wiki:
Spirituality refers to an ultimate or an alleged immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of his/her being; or the "deepest values and meanings by which people live.


I agree with wiki that anyone who understands "immaterial reality" is spiritual. Atheism and spirituality seem a bit incompatible to me though... atheists seem to be more along the materialist mindset... jmo.