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being saved

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by robtex, Jan 21, 2005.

  1. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    isis-astoroth brought-up in another thread about being saved and I was curious how christians on here feel about it.

    If you you are unable to "save" another from accepting Christ as their savior have:

    1) you failed as a christian
    2) they failed as a human being
    3) damned themselves to hell
    4) destroyed their relationship with God for all eternity
    5) broken their relationship with christians on earth?
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Hey Rob,

    I hate to use a cliche, but you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!!

    People need to WANT to be saved in order to do it.:)
     
  3. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    If they don't "drink" do they burn for eternity?
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't claim to know the location of even my own afterlife.... I don't assume to know about anyone else.
     
  5. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I voted 'no'. I believe God to be ever-forgiving; we are the 'sheep' of his flock. When one of the sheep stray, God might 'give us a 'nudge' in the right direction, but to my way of thinking, he would'nt roast the sheep. That's where my belief in reincarnation gives the 'souls-sheep' opportunities to make it oe not to make it. For some, it will just take a longer time.:)
     
  6. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    sheol, hades, hell. all the same place. the grave.

    since the comments i made are correct and true, one cannot vote about anyone "burning in hell" since it's the grave and the dead are conscious of nothing at all.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
     
  7. painted wolf

    painted wolf Grey Muzzle

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    if people can't get to heaven without Christ, then what happined to Noah, Abraham, Adam and all the countless millions who lived prior to Christ?
    The whole concept doesn't make much sence to me, thats one of the (many) reasons I'm not a Christian. :cool:

    wa:do
     
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  8. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    I would say that would depend on whether or not you believe in the Bible, Christ, God,...The Bible HAS made it clear that if you confess your sins with your mouth and believe with your heart that He is faithful enough to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Will those who aren't saved go to Hell? The Bible says those who are wicked will be cast into fire and wail and there will be gnashing of teeth. Those who were born prior to Jesus coming weren't judged as we will be judged so to compare those with us can't be justified. They had to live by the commandments and by blood sacrifice for forgivness of sin. We on the other hand had One come for us that paid our blood sacrifice IF we believe in Him.:)
     
  9. t3gah

    t3gah Well-Known Member

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    Funk & Wagnalls
    New Comprehensive International Dictionary of the English Language
    *Encyclopedic Edition*
    (c) 1975

    Gehenna n. 1 In the Bible, the valley of Hinnom near Jerusalem, where offal was thrown and fires kept burning to purify the air. 2 A place of torment. 3 In the New Testament, hell; hellfire. [<LL <Gk. geena <Hebrew ge- hinnom valley of Hinnom]

    hades The kingdom over which Pluto rules, the abode of the dead. See TARTARUS, ORCUS. Colloq. A euphemism for HELL. [<Gk. Haides <a-not + idein seen]

    Hel In Norse mythology: 1 The daughter of Loki, goddess of those who died of old age or disease. 2 The kingdom of the dead not killed in battle. see VALHALLA.

    hell n. In ancient times, the place of the departed spirits: Called by the Greeks Hades, by the Hebrews Sheol, by the Scandinavians Hel. [OLD ENGLISH hel]

    Odin In Norse mythology: The supreme diety, god of war and founder of art and culture. Compare WODEN. Also spelled Othin.

    Orcus In Roman mythology: 1 The abode of the dead. 2 Pluto or Dis, the god of the underworld and lord of the dead.

    sheol n. Hell. [<Hebrew she'ol cave < sha'al dig]

    Tartarus In Greek mythology: 1 The abyss below hades where Zeus confined the Titans. 2 Hades.

    Valhalla In Norse mythology: 1 The great hall into which the souls of the heros fallen bravely in battle were borne by the valkyries and received and feasted by Odin. 2 An edifice wherein the remains or memorials of deceased heros of the nation are placed. Also Valhall: also spelled Walhalla. [<NL <ON valhöll, genetive of valhallar hall of the slain <valr the slain + höll hall]

    Woden The Old English name for Odin, the chief Norse god. Wednesday is the name for Woden. Also Wod’an.
    Lazarus went to hades, but he was a good man. Was he burning in hell before he was resurrected by Jesus four days later?

    The wicked go to Gehenna, which was an actual place in bible times. Since it no longer exists today, this must be a kind of death. Dead criminals were burned in Gehenna (Valley of Hinnom), which was a disgraceful funeral and one that people forgot.

    All of the pagan mythologies seem to have a deeper meaning for the place of the dead.

    The bible passage Ecclesiastes 9:5, which I already posted, means that all dead are gone.
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hmnnnn, hell, "the outer darkness", the "lake of sulfer" etc. etc.

    Hell is the absense of God.

    God is good.

    God is light.

    God is Love.

    Figure it out.

    Most people are seperated from God right now. They are experiencing hell already, though there are a lot of "slices" of heaven down here to help them see what is available.

    A few people have fallen head over heals in love with God, and his son Jesus. They are truly living in heaven on earth. Yet, we are reminded about hell as well, so we don't lose focus.

    Either way... the choice is yours. Choose heaven or hell, whichever fits you best. God will accomodate your decision.
     
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  11. Ronald

    Ronald Well-Known Member

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    Getting saved is EZ, the endevor is being among the chosen!
     
  12. Reverend Jeremiah

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    As far as the atheist perspective of this question, The christian who thinks he is "saved" by Jesus will not be going to heaven either.
     
  13. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    That is quite a statement from an atheist...Too bad you don't see the forest for the trees.
    You are intitled to your opinion...so Let's just say you are so misinformed from the christian standpoint.:)
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It depends on how they live their lives; I believe that if they live their lives by the moral and ethical standards of the bible, I cannot see them 'burn for eternity'.:)
     
  15. fromthe heart

    fromthe heart Well-Known Member

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    Not of works lest any man should boast....not my words.
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:22-26


    This verse makes it clear that God held of punishing the sins of those befor Christ until Jesus was crucified. Thereby those befor christ and those after all enter heaven through the atonment Jesus made for them all on the Cross. Its this same offer that God still offers you and me :) you should make sure you understand the offer you are refusing.
     
  17. Reverend Jeremiah

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    As far as what the bible says about heaven:
    Now, I completely expect to be censored for this response, sense it seems to be the norm for this website to allow beleivers to make nagging little claims such as the one above... but not allow the atheist to defend himself. And by the way, I am not going off topic with this either. The topic is heaven, my point is to prove that "Heaven" is a figment of bronze age imagination.

    I am misinformed from the christian stand point?
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 1:6-10[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good."[/font]

    This is the origin of that strange structure in the sky that the bible refers to as the firmament, or "Heaven". Strange that he should create the "Heaven" twice, because he has already made it in Genesis 1:1. Apparently there was water which needed dividing, and that is why the sky is blue... becuase the firmament has divided the waters above, from the waters below. And that is also where the rain comes from. As strange as it may seem to todays thinking, this does seem to have a good base to it, because if you do not understand that water evaporates and then rains back down again, this explanation would definitely stick. God made the solid sky in one day (read; ONE DAY, not millions, he specifically says that the evening and the morning were the second day.) The firmament IS NOT the dry land, god mentions dry land in these verses, and they are NOT called the firmament. The firmament IS the sky, IS the "Heaven".

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 1:14-18[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good."[/font]

    Those lights in the firmament are permanently "set" into this solid structure, which spins around our fixed planet. And yes, God says that the moon gives off its own "lesser light" instead of reflecting the light of the sun. Well...God thinks that its good.

    Still dont beleive that heaven means the solid sky called the firmament, checok this verse out that has god "opening the windows of Heaven"..LOL
    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Genesis 7:11-12[/font]

    [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights."[/font]

    WOW, 600 YEARS OLD! I think its safe to say that Noah is just as mythical as the "windows" in the sky / Heaven that were opened to let the rain fall down to flood the Earth.

    Exerpts from my website can be found here:http://www.reverendjeremiah.com/cosmology.htm

    go there and check out the original animation I made of Christian cosmology.

    Are you living life like there IS a divinity? With more than one million possible gods and goddesses, with many different punishment afterlifes for the crimes of not beleiving them... you better be RIGHT!
     
  18. Reverend Jeremiah

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    Im sorry, the topic is "being saved"..but this still is on the subject.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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  20. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    As one of our Universalist founders, Hosea Ballou, argued:
    If God is good, then God wants everyone to be saved.
    If God is powerful, then God gets what God wants.
    Therefore, everyone is saved.

    Personally, I think that Ballou went a little too far in that he took away free-will from humans. It basically doesn't matter what you do in his scheme of things. Believe in Christ. Don't believe in Christ. Be good to your fellow man. Be selfish and cruel. No matter what, you end up in the same place when you die.

    That just doesn't make sense to me. But I do agree with the general gyst of his argument as outlined above. I just think that something more must happen that allows both for free-will and universal salvation (whatever that means). One must face the consequences of one's choices, but I do not believe that "eternal damnation" is ever one of those consequences.
     
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