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Being Baptised; makes you a true Christian?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by RangerTwigz, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Baptism "with" the Holy Spirit does not imply that the Holy Spirit was the medium for Baptism. Water has always been the medium. However, before the counselor (the spirit) came, it was impossible to be baptised "with" the spirit present.

    Acts 8:36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" 38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

    Here it is truly OBVIOUS that the baptism being taught included water. If you are having thoughts about whether Baptism is neccesary or not to become a Christian, then possibly you aren't ready to commit your whole heart to God and his word without reservation. When your attitude becomes "Look here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?" then you have arrived.
     
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  2. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    In Acts chapter 8, I think that it is also important to point out that the Etheopian was reading from Isaiah, and that it says that Phillip, "Preached Jesus to him". It was after that when he asked to be baptized. This indicates to me that if you preach the doctrine of Jesus, you also preach baptism as a necassary part of that.

    If you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ, then there would be no need to be baptised. There are many things that have to happen before baptism becomes effective. You must believe, repent from sins and confess the Lord as your Savior. Baptism is the final step in the process and the point in which "baptism doth now save us."
     
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  3. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    The point is this: We need to look at a ALL scripture, letting scripture interpret itself, in order to get an accurate picture.

    We nee faith just as much as we need baptism. We need both of those just as much as repentence, prayer, love, preaching...everything we are commanded to do. Without any of these the others are usesless. One without the others is just as useless as a few without one. If the scripture tells us (as in Matthew 28:19) to go out and baptize, then that is precisely what we need to do. That means we must be baptized. Christ directly commanded it, so it is a necessary part of our salvation. Why all the confusion?
     
  4. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    yes baptism is quite necessary- Christ DID command it, and refusing baptism after salvation is a sin. But the point I am making is that if someone accepts Jesus as their saviour- they are saved- they are going to heaven. If they get in a car wreck on the way to the church to be baptized, they are not going to be missing out on a piece of salvation and go to hell. A Christian should have a desire to to God's will and be baptized in obediance, but if whoever led them to the Lord did not know that you need to be baptized, or if they got saved through a tract that did not say anything about being baptized, they would not go to hell if they lived the rest of their lives without being baptized because they didn't know they had to be.

    Refusal of baptism is a sin and that person is out of the will of God. He will miss out on rewards in heaven, and cannot GROW as a Christian because he has not been baptized. A Christian who does not get baptized because he didn't know he had to likewise will not grow as a Christian because he to has not taken the first step of obediance to God after salvation.
     
  5. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Then Explain to me 1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    I have posted the above passage numerous times and never recieved a response or comment about it. What do you think of it?

    Also, Acts 2:38 - Peter said to them, "Repent, and each one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...

    This passage is interesting becuae it doesn't mention belief alone as a means of salvation. It says that baptism and repentance will take away our sins. How can we make it to heaven with sin still in us?

    I hate to say it, but you can't legitamtately claim this. And similarly, I cannot claim the opposite. I only say this on the basis of our lack of example or writing on this subject. The thief on the cross may be our only example, but there are problems with that assumption:

    1. It happened before baptism was established as a means of salvation. It occured before Christ's actual death and certainly before His resurrection, preceeding Mathew 28:19 where the commandment is given.

    2. Jesus directly states to the man that he would be saved. This does not happen with us today. Jesus does not come to us directly and say, "Don't worry, you will be in heaven."

    My point is that the thief on the cross was a unique situation that does not apply to everyone. And if someone dies in the car on the way to their baptism, then who knows what will happen to their soul? The answer is that we do not know the answer. There is no legitamate example of it occuring within the scripture.

    Sorry, but that is not a very good excuse wither. Claiming ignorance is no excuse for not doing the will of God.

    As I have said before, salvation is not a cut and dry process. I don't see the scriptures teaching any one point of Salvation. There are too many things (commandments and such) that are involved to make it so easy. Faith alone is not enough to save us because without works, it is dead.You can't jut say, "ok, now that I believe I don't have to do these other things because Im saved." the Bible doesn't teach that kind of attitude. Our salvation is to be kept in mind at all times, always thinking of the right thing to do. Because Satan is like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour (1 Peter: 5:8).
     
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  6. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Jesus sent us a comforter, the Holy Spirit. It is he who indwells us, regenerates us, and guides us. The Holy Spirit helps us understand scriptures, and we are definitely saved when we receive the holy spirit, upon the moment we accept Jesus into our heart. "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption"(Ephesians4:30). Once we receive the Holy Spirit we are saved without fear of losing it until we receive our glorified bodies.

    Concerning the man whom Jesus told on the cross that he would be with him that day in paradise (NOT HEAVEN)- that man looked toward the FUTURE work of Jesus on the cross- Jesus had not yet died- his work was not finished. He looked forward to future salvation just as Adam, Moses, David, and Abraham did, etc. Jesus died for our sins past, present, and future.

    However, Jesus had not yet completed his work on the cross- the thief would not be going heaven when he died, but paradise (Abraham's Bosom). That is where Jesus went when he died on the cross, to speak to old testament saints, those who looked forward to a saviour, and were therefore made righteous. After he appeared to them, they accepted HIM as their saviour, and are in heaven.

    We look back to what Jesus did on the cross, just as those who died before Jesus looked forward to what he did. There is no difference in the manner of salvation though. There is no reference in the Bible to water baptism being a part of salvation, but there are countless verses that reference what Jesus did on the cross as the sole requirement for salvation. Jesus died and said "it is finished." There was no water baptism included. It should not be a confusing matter when there is no scripture that points to baptism in water being a saving act. Salvation is NOT a pick- and choose, conglomeration of facts and matters, but 1 simple choice- to accept what Jesus did on the cross as a propitiation for our sins. Simple.
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    HeY Keevelish...
    So what scripture does this doctrine come from?
     
  8. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    I just don't understand why the necessity of baptism is so difficult to accept for some. It is not a hard thing to do and should be something that you are happy to do as a person who wnts to be obedient to God. Why make the excuses not to be baptised?
     
  9. Saw11_2000

    Saw11_2000 Well-Known Member

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    I was baptised, but look what's happened to me.
     
  10. BUDDY

    BUDDY User of Aspercreme

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    I'm not giving up on you Saw. I can still turn you from the dark side of the force.:jam:
     
  11. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    keevelish,
    You make a some good points here. But you still have not managed to tell me how the situation with the thief on the cross applies to us today. We have been commanded to have faith, just like the thief. But we also have the command to be baptized (Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21), which the thief did not.

    How can you even think that? The Greek noun "baptisma" means quite literally, "immersion, submersion, and emergence". The verb form, "Baptizo" means, "to dip". The greeks used it when refering to dying cloth, washing things, or drawing water from a well by dipping the bucket into the water.

    In addition, seeing as how you still have not said anything regarding 1 Peter 3:21. Again, I will quote it. This time I will include the previous verse.

    1 Peter 3: 20-21 - 20 Who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    I am asking you to tell me what you thnk of this verse. I have asked you several times already and you have said nothing regarding this passage. Peter here is talking about baptism with water. How can you get around that? Noah's ark and the reference to removal of dirt both are references to water baptism.

    Also, John 1:31 - I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water

    Again, baptism in water is directly mentioned. How can you say that there is no reference to it?

    Jesus Himself was baptized earlier (Matthew 3:13; Mark 1:9; Luke 3:2). And again I point you to 1 Peter 3:20-21.

    Sorry, but there is much more to it than that. Faith in God or faith in Jesus alone is not enough. You must have the works to accompany it. You must. Faith is dead without them. I believe baptism is a work just like loving your brother, preaching the Gospel, prayer, repentence, humility. We need all of them and cannot just chose one.
     
  12. Saw11_2000

    Saw11_2000 Well-Known Member

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    LOL, thanks...I guess.
     
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