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Being Baptised; makes you a true Christian?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by RangerTwigz, Jan 4, 2005.

  1. RangerTwigz

    RangerTwigz New Member

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    At my Baptist church, I used to attend a Youth Alpha group and during one of these meetings the topic of baptism was introduced. My minister explicitly said that not being baptised means that you are not fully cleansed and accepted by God. I was confused by this and I dont completly agree. I was wondering if anyone else has any views or explanations concerning baptism.
     
  2. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    This has come up a lot recently here on the forums.

    My reasons why baptism is the only way to obtain salvation:
    Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

    To me, this passage is probably the most important scripture that indicates that baptism is needed for salvation since Jesus Himself commanded it.

    Acts 2:38 - Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    1 Peter 3:21 - Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

    These are probably my top chopices of scripture for giving evidence that baptism is needed for salvation. In adidition to these, every conversion account in the Bible mentions baptism. The Phillipian jailor, the Etheopian treasurer, Lydia the seller of purple fabrics, etc. That Ethiopian treasurer recognized the fact that he needed to be baptized almost right away after Peter "preached Jesus to him." I can't see why all those people would feel the need to get baptized if it wasn't necessary.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Hey Ranger...

    It is impossible to find a conversion in Acts that does NOT include baptism. We may not understand it, but it appears to be the point at which you are actually "saved".

    But don't take my word for it... read (and re-read) the Book of Acts. See if what I say is true or not. Read the other scriptures that Linus provided. If you REALLY want to know the truth, the Spirit will open it up to you. Just be prepared to obey it when you find it.

    BTW, many would argue against it by labeling it a "work". Well, neither Peter, Paul or Jesus called it a "work". It is an act of FAITH and nothing more; nothing less.
     
  4. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Good point NetDoc. Especially in light of the fact that works alone do not save.

    I think it is important to look at all scripture that speaks of salvation and compile them together to get a more comprehensive description. We are not saved by any ONE thing in particular. We are saved through many things: Baptism, faith, God's grace, repentance, as well as works. Baptism just seems to be the most "important" work (if you can call it that). We cannot obtain salvation without all these things put together. One without the others is useless. Baptism is just as important as faith, which is just as important as works. I feel like I am rambling.
     
  5. No*s

    No*s Captain Obvious

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    I'm going to post here, because I'm an ex-baptist and got my theology credentials from Baptists, and I won't post anything contrary to them, nor will I post much. So, forgive me if I overstep, but I do have something I can contribute positively and felt I should.

    What you have been told isn't exactly mainstream Baptist thought. They range from modified Calvinists to full-fledged Calvinists in most of my experience, and you can find some groups that say Baptism is necessary and some that deny it, but the not being "fully cleansed," that is something new to me even. Most of the time, I used to hear a more radical soteriology in which no works were neccessary.

    So, try a few others, and you'll hear other Baptist opinions.

    Now...I'm going to vanish again. I apologize again for any offense this may cause :(.
     
  6. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Really? I wish I knew where that scripture was...
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Opps... I didn't realise this was a "Baptist only" area. My response came from scripture and not from the Baptist dogma! My apologies.
     
  8. tshayden

    tshayden New Member

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    hello, we have heard the joyful sound. Jesus saves !Jesus saves!
     
  9. tshayden

    tshayden New Member

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    :) when the pharasies heard that Jesus made and baptised more diciples than John, though Jesus himself baptised not. The indication here is that we need to be baptised ogf Christ. Not of water to be saved . the outward sign of an inward work. ( The work that Christ has done, even the salvation of the soul,by the washing with his own blood,) is what baptisum represents.:162:
     
  10. Performance Park

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    Linus,

    I have to respectfully disagree with your interpretation of scripture. You know as well as I do that we are to let scripture interpret scripture. The long existing doctrine of baptism completing the salvation process, or baptism for salvation is deep rooted in man's efforts to play a role in Christ's redemptive work at Calvary.

    Matthew 28 (which I have preached many times) does mention that Christ commands us to go and baptize, but he also commanded us to love one another, to fogive, etc. Just because Christ commands something of us, doesn't make it a part of the salvation process.

    Acts 2:38, Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4, Revelation 3: John the Baptists first words in ministry were "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", Christ's first words out the 40 days of fasting/prayer were "Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", Peter's first word at the culmination of his Holy Spirit inspired message to 3,000 was "Repent", and some of Christ's last words to the church in Rev. 2 and 3 were "Repent".

    We have to understand one crucial aspect of the salvation process. It has nothing to do with us, we simply have a choice to accep God's truth and call or reject it. I do believe baptism is important and that it is our first act of obedience in our new faith. I am troubled by folks that choose to not be baptized, and feel it is outright rebelion and often wonder if they were saved in the first place. I could go on and on and hopefully we will be able to have this discussion and get some others involved...(NetDoc?)...:)
     
  11. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying here that we do not need to love each other, or to forgive in order to be saved? How can we reach the goal if we do not love, forgive... baptize. I don't see how we can get there if we do not adhere to the commandments we are given. It sounds like you are saying, "Well, just because Jesus commanded it, doesn't mean we have to do it." I do not believe that salvation is as cut and dry as you seem to be indicating. It is more than just a few steps to complete. We must fight for our salvation everymoment of our lives. It is a continuous, ongoing process that we must deal with every moment of every day.

    Also, Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...

    What do you think Peter is saying here? How does scripture interpret itslef here?

    It goes back to what I said in an earlier post. We must take ALL things into consideration when dealing with one's salvation (or any biblical topic fopr that matter). We cannot rely on a few select passages. We must put it all together to get a more comprehensive description. If one passage says, "repent" only, and another passage says, "repend and be baptized," is there a contradiction? I do not believe so. I believe that we must put the two together and realize that repentance and baptism - both together - must take place in order to attain salvation.
     
  12. videocrafter

    videocrafter New Member

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    What about the thief on the cross? Christ said "Today you shall live with me in paradise" yet he wasn't baptized. That kind of tells me that all we need is Jesus.
     
  13. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I see salvation as an inner process, not an outer one.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Videocrafter...

    The thief died before Jesus was resurected and his church established on the day of pentecost.

    Most people reject baptism out of sheer pride. They don't understand it and so toss it aside as not needed. I have referred to Naamun before, and will do so here again. We wasn't clean until he dipped 7 times in the river Jordan. 6 times would not have worked. It is not a work of man, since God is doing the saving. However, it does seperate those who pay "lip service" to following Jesus from those intent on doing so whether they fully understand him or not.
     
  15. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    I can't say that the thief's conversion on the cross was an everyday event. I would have to say that it was a special circumstance and a unique situation. This thief is the ONLY person to whom Jesus ever says anyhting like this. You have to admit that it was an exclusive promise made only to that person. If you use that passage, and that passage alone to prove that baptism is not necessary, then you are blatantly ignoring other pasages of scripture. Such as 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 2:38.
     
  16. Linus

    Linus Well-Known Member

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    It is. But there are outward signs that can confirm it. Works. Works are just as important in faith as faith itself. Works alone cannot save, but without them faith is dead. In short, you are right that it is an inner process, but there are outward signs thereof. Take for example, the communion. It is a process by which we commemorate the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. It is simply a time to remember, think, and concentrate...all internal things. But still we partake of the bread, and the cup. Outward signs of an internal faith. Do you see my point?
     
  17. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Romans 10:13

    John 20:31
    But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name

    Mark 16:16
    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    One must look carefully to interpret this last one- the first part one would assume that you need to be baptized to be saved but in the second part of the verse, baptizm (by immersion) is not included. If you don't believe, you will go to hell.

    There are actually 7 different baptisms in the Bible- in order to understand them, you have to look at the context of the scripture.

    Many of the verses that people give to support their belief that baptism saves are actually referring to the baptism of the holy sprit by which believers are regenerated upon the exact moment of salvation.

    In all cases in which people were baptized by immersion, the baptism occurred after the people BELIEVED in Jesus Christ as their saviour. (Acts 8:37). It is when the person asks Jesus into his heart that he is saved. Baptism by immersion is ONLY an act of obediance to God to publicly identify yourself as a believer. It is pleasing to Him, but does NOT save you.
     
  18. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Jesus told the theif this to reassure him of his salvation. Jesus can't directly speak to a believer today because he is in heaven sitted at the right hand of the Father. The holy spirit is what indwells a believer and regenerates him.

    The thief was saved because he believed in the saving work of Jesus's blood and what he did on the cross. He did not need to be baptized by water.
     
  19. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Works are necessary to PROVE your faith- they are the fruits of the spirit. However, a person does not NEED works to be saved. He is solely saved by Jesus's blood. We participate in communion and baptism because Jesus commanded these ordinaces to the church. They are works pleasing to God. If we die and we do not do that which God has commanded us (such as baptism), we will lose out on rewards in heaven, but we will STILL be in heaven. (But this is getting on to the subject of can one lose his salvation).
     
  20. keevelish

    keevelish Member

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    Like I said, most people who believe that baptizm by water is necessary for salvation quote verses that in their context, actually are referring to the baptism of the holy spirit.

    Acts 2:38 says baptized in the name of Jesus- think- we get saved by calling on the name of Jesus(For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved Romans 10:13).
    "I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost" (Mark 1:8).


    BUT- we are to baptize in water in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Sprit.
    Acts 2:38 does Not include the Father and the Holy Spirit. This verse is NOT referring to water baptism, but to SPIRIT baptism.
    "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"Matthew 28:19). (this is baptism by immersion, a church ordinance, as it is also commanded of churches to go out and spread the gospel).
     
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