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Before Christ, before Christianity, there was just the

Nimos

Well-Known Member
What is DEATH really?
Its a good question and obviously have many different guesses depending on who you ask.

To me I think the closest we can get to experience death is when we sleep, not during the dream state by the time where we don't remember anything. But instead of waking up, you just never do.

However if one were to assume that death is something more than that, it becomes more interesting. For then the question might be why we assume that being alive is better than being dead since no one knows what happens after we die. But for most people death, with good reason, is connected to something bad. But I don't think death it self is what we are concerned about, but rather its all the things we have to say goodbye to and everything we know. And also in a lot of cases death can involve suffering which no one likes and want to avoid.

At least to me that explain why some religions believe in heaven and the afterlife as its gives conform and probably makes it easier for some people to relate to it, knowing that someone will take care of them and they will meet everyone again.

I do tend to wonder sometimes, if there would be as many religious people if it weren't for that hope?
 
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Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
Its a good question and obviously have many different guesses depending on who you ask.

To me I think the closest we can get to experience death is when we sleep, not during the dream state by the time where we don't remember anything. But instead of waking up, you just never do.

However if one were to assume that death is something more than that, it becomes more interesting. For then the question might be why we assume that being alive is better than being dead since no one knows what happens after we die. But for most people death, with good reason, is connected to something bad. But I don't think death it self is what we are concerned about, but rather its all the things we to say goodbye to and everything we know. And also in a lot of cases death can involve suffering which no one likes and want to avoid.

At least to me that explain why some religions believe in heaven and the afterlife as its gives conform and probably makes it easier for some people to relate to it, knowing that someone will take care of them and they will meet everyone again.

I do tend to wonder sometimes, if there would be as many religious people if it weren't for that hope?

Certainly the notion of an afterlife is comforting to many: it gives hope beyond the dreaded grave.

The hereafter possibility must be the biggest lure of people to the Christian faith. Some people are Christians for fear of hell.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Certainly the notion of an afterlife is comforting to many: it gives hope beyond the dreaded grave.

The hereafter possibility must be the biggest lure of people to the Christian faith. Some people are Christians for fear of hell.
Why does the grave fill you with dread?
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Old Testament and the Jews.

According to the Old Testament, what happens to people when they die?

Do they just sustain an eternal unconscious death?

Death is as much a mystery to the human mind as life itself and perhaps more so.

We can't think through the minds of the dead as living entities in the flesh.

We can't see the world from the point of view of the dead.

We can't hear through dead person's ears.

We can't ask the dead of their death experience and expect to receive an answer from the dead person's lips. We can't ask the dead, "What is it like to be dead?"

Are the dead temporarily or permanently conscious or unconscious?

We living really know not much of the dead for a fact except what we can observe with our own senses. DEATH is a presumed state in the minds of the living anyway. No heartbeat, no breathing: the person is legally declared "dead". We can only observe the physical aspects of what we presume to be "death" and not the spiritual aspects.

Tom Berenger's sergeant character really posed a profound question his soldiers in the film Platoon, "What do you know about death?"

What is DEATH really?
"Before Christ, before Christianity, there was just the."

Did not exist.

i belong to a denomination where we believe the old testament is a mythology made up after jesus to make it appear that somehow history goes backwards before that. We also hold to the nicene creeed so we can keep our tax exempt status. Some denominations were starting to think we were a bit whacky and a scam by our leader DavidT as we call him. He has denied all of it.



 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That possibility is still not quite as horrific as the possibility of going to a place or state of torment forever. Most of us would prefer, if given a choice, an eternal unconscious death over a conscious eternity of suffering in hell fire. There is no joy and happiness in an unconscious death but neither is their pain, sorrow and grief. One, whether living or dead in the flesh, has to be CONSCIOUS to experience suffering (or even joy).

You do understand that the Jews believed in the resurrection, don't you? They believed that once Messiah's kingdom was established on earth, that the dead would be raised back to this life. There was never any belief in going to heaven. When Jesus inaugurated the new covenant, only then was the prospect of going to heaven for a chosen few, made known. The apostles themselves formed the foundation of that heavenly kingdom, which will rule from heaven over redeemed mankind. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Jesus performed the kind of resurrections that are promised in the future when Christ has cleansed the earth and established his kingdom rule. (John 5:28-29)

When the Greek philosophical idea of an immortal soul entered the consciousness of both apostate Jews and Christians, the Bible's teaching of the resurrection disappeared in favor of the belief that you don't really die. Which is nothing more that a perpetuation of the devil's first lie. God told Adam that he would die and return to the dust...nothing more. If "hell" was a real place, then why did God not warn him about it? He never mentioned heaven either.....so don't we have to ask why?

The Hebrew Scriptures say nothing about an immortal soul and neither does Christ ever mention it. He never taught about "heaven or hell" as opposite destinations because there never was such a scenario offered in either Jewish or Christian scripture. What some mistranslated as "hell" is "Gehenna" which is not a place of eternal torment, but a place of eternal death. Like "the lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation, it is "the second death"...a death from which no one returns. (Revelation 20:13-15)

Planet earth was to be the permanent home for humankind forever. There is nothing conscious in humans that survives death. We do not "have" a soul but are "souls"....that is "living, breathing creatures" which includes the animals. Anything that breathes is a soul. It is tangible, material and mortal. It never means a disembodied spirit.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
"Before Christ, before Christianity, there was just the."

Did not exist.

i belong to a denomination where we believe the old testament is a mythology made up after jesus to make it appear that somehow history goes backwards before that. We also hold to the nicene creeed so we can keep our tax exempt status. Some denominations were starting to think we were a bit whacky and a scam by our leader DavidT as we call him. He has denied all of it.


I thought history was going backward!
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I thought history was going backward!
Yea but not double backward. Thats a paradox that our leader has clearly demonstrated is impossible scientifically with math. You see he is a math genius, and to be honest his formulas are so elegant no one can fully comprehend them. Except for him.

He generally also preaches in the third forth fifth person demonstrating multi demsional qualities as well clearly.
 

The Reverend Bob

Fart Machine and Beastmaster
Yea but not double backward. Thats a paradox that our leader has clearly demonstrated is impossible scientifically with math. You see he is a math genius, and to be honest his formulas are so elegant no one can fully comprehend them. Except for him.
No one ever tells me these things. How am I supposed to know if people don't tell me?. Since when did it stop going double backwards?
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No one ever tells me these things. How am I supposed to know if people don't tell me?. Since when did it stop going double backwards?
This was discussed in a thread long ago "What was before Jesus"

It was a heated debate atheists jumped in argued that since jesus did not exist clearly we dont exist there is no objective proof, tradionalists like me stood firm no time before, and liberals obviously contended there might be although very wishy washy if ya know what i mean.

I love this forum it allows me to pretend how normal folk reason!!!
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Why would Jesus tell a parable that appears to reveal, that after the first death, which is that of the body, the spirits/minds of the good are separated from the spirits/minds of the wicked, where the good spirits/minds enter into a state of rest within the bosom of Abraham, while the wicked spirits enter into a state of terrible mental torment as they await the great day of Judgement, when the unrepentant will suffer eternal oblivion in the lake of fire?

Perhaps Jesus had read Isaiah 57: 1-2, where it is written; "Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity an hurt them. Those who lead Good Lives find peace and rest in death.

But you (Deeje) appear to believe that even those who lead wicked lives will find peace and rest in death.

Ah well, I suppose it takes all kinds, doesn't it?
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
We can't ask the dead of their death experience and expect to receive an answer from the dead person's lips. We can't ask the dead, "What is it like to be dead?"

Some people think they can.

But the God of the Bible made it a serious crime to "inquire of the dead." (Deuteronomy 18:10-12).

Why? Any thoughts as to why it was forbidden, along with casting spells, fortunetelling, and magic?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
That possibility is still not quite as horrific as the possibility of going to a place or state of torment forever. Most of us would prefer, if given a choice, an eternal unconscious death over a conscious eternity of suffering in hell fire. There is no joy and happiness in an unconscious death but neither is their pain, sorrow and grief. One, whether living or dead in the flesh, has to be CONSCIOUS to experience suffering (or even joy).
Now consider....What would a loving God do, to His enemies?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Old Testament and the Jews.

According to the Old Testament, what happens to people when they die?

Do they just sustain an eternal unconscious death?

Death is as much a mystery to the human mind as life itself and perhaps more so.

We can't think through the minds of the dead as living entities in the flesh.

We can't see the world from the point of view of the dead.

We can't hear through dead person's ears.

We can't ask the dead of their death experience and expect to receive an answer from the dead person's lips. We can't ask the dead, "What is it like to be dead?"

Are the dead temporarily or permanently conscious or unconscious?

We living really know not much of the dead for a fact except what we can observe with our own senses. DEATH is a presumed state in the minds of the living anyway. No heartbeat, no breathing: the person is legally declared "dead". We can only observe the physical aspects of what we presume to be "death" and not the spiritual aspects.

Tom Berenger's sergeant character really posed a profound question his soldiers in the film Platoon, "What do you know about death?"

What is DEATH really?
This is good...it should make us think about when Jehovah God told Adam, 'If you eat from the tree, you will die.'

No further explanation was given!

How would they know what death was? By observing the animals' deaths, it's the only way they could've known.


Death is simply non-existence. No more. Ecclesiastes 3:19-20; Genesis 3:19
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Why would Jesus tell a parable that appears to reveal, that after the first death, which is that of the body, the spirits/minds of the good are separated from the spirits/minds of the wicked, where the good spirits/minds enter into a state of rest within the bosom of Abraham, while the wicked spirits enter into a state of terrible mental torment as they await the great day of Judgement, when the unrepentant will suffer eternal oblivion in the lake of fire?

You do realize that parables are not real...they are illustrations with a lesson to teach.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not about the characters themselves but who they represented.
The rich man was not said to be wicked, nor was the beggar said to be righteous. The rich man pictured the Pharisees as a group, happy with their lot and uncaring about the starving sheep that God placed in their care, not even throwing them a crust of bread.....whereas the beggar represented the spiritually impoverished "lost sheep" scrambling for a few crumbs. Their deaths signaled a change in status...they exchanged places. The "bosom of Abraham" was the place that pictured friendship and favor with God...something Christ's disciples gained, whilst the Pharisees lost their place in the Kingdom arrangement.

We know it was an illustration because heaven and hell are hardly within speaking distance to one another, and a drop of water on someone's finger is not going to be of benefit to someone burning in flames. The torment experienced by the rich man was created from the condemnation they received from Jesus. The dead are not capable of communication or even thought. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10; Psalm 115:17; Psalm 146:4)

Perhaps Jesus had read Isaiah 57: 1-2, where it is written; "Good people die and no one understands or even cares. But when they (Good People) die, no calamity an hurt them. Those who lead Good Lives find peace and rest in death.

But you (Deeje) appear to believe that even those who lead wicked lives will find peace and rest in death.

If you mean that eternal death is resting in peace, then I'm afraid you have that a bit wrong....annihilation is not resting in peace.....it is spending eternity in the same place that one was before their parents conceived them, God will send them back to non-existence, just like Adam.....they will become part of the dust of the earth....no will remember that they ever existed. That is what "gehenna" represented....not eternal life in a torturous prison, but eternal death.....total extinction.

Eternal life was promised only to the righteous....in order to torture the wicked forever, God would have to grant them eternal life.....that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

Ah well, I suppose it takes all kinds, doesn't it?
Yes, I guess you are proving that with every post.
 

danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Certainly the notion of an afterlife is comforting to many: it gives hope beyond the dreaded grave.

The hereafter possibility must be the biggest lure of people to the Christian faith. Some people are Christians for fear of hell.
One doesn’t need Christianity to believe in the afterlife.

I think the fear of hell is irrational, and I doubt we would end up there by rejecting an arbitrary religion even if there is such a place.

I find your honesty refreshing though :)
 

Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
Why does the grave fill you with dread?

I think it is pure human instinct to fear death: fear of the unknown. The grave is DEATH
in other words. It's possible that it may be final, absolute and forever. There still might
be something beautiful and lasting even beyond it.

Fear of missing out on the loving lick of a dog, the beautiful music of Couperin and Bach
or the lovely smell of a fresh-cut rose. The fun of boating, fishing and hunting being no more,
possibly forever.

Would you have the guts to place a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger
and discover death for yourself firsthand? According to Christian belief,
you may find yourself in hell for the sin of suicide. No, God forbid, I will never have the bravery to
jump off a tall building willingly ULESS God were to command me to do so. In that case,
I would believe I would be safe to jump.
 
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Jonathan Bailey

Well-Known Member
One doesn’t need Christianity to believe in the afterlife.

I think the fear of hell is irrational, and I doubt we would end up there by rejecting an arbitrary religion even if there is such a place.

I find your honesty refreshing though :)

Believe or even subscribe to the mere possibility of an afterlife. That possibility has been on the realm of human thought since nearly the beginning of time. It doesn't motivate people to move forward in life if they were to believe death is the final and forever end of the line: an ever-unconscious and eternal done deal. It's a rather sad and depressing prospect to many.
 

JJ50

Well-Known Member
What is death really? Just another doorway to a new and different place.
All things are energy. Energy cannot be destroyed only re-formed. And all energy moves to a rhythm.
There is no cessation of life really. Just a different "reality".
Those who die and were human know nothing after this life is over. This subjective reality.

I hope that is that is the case.
I think it is pure human instinct to fear death: fear of the unknown. The grave is DEATH
in other words. It's possible that it may be final, absolute and forever. There still might
be something beautiful and lasting even beyond it.

Fear of missing out on the loving lick of a dog, the beautiful music of Couperin and Bach
or the lovely smell of a fresh-cut rose. The fun of boating, fishing and hunting being no more,
possibly forever.

Would you have the guts to place a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger
and discover death for yourself firsthand? According to Christian belief,
you may find yourself in hell for the sin of suicide. No, God forbid, I will never have the bravery to
jump off a tall building willingly ULESS God were to command me to do so. In that case,
I would believe I would be safe to jump.

I hope you would never be silly enough to think some mythical deity is encouraging you to perform a terrible deed, either injuring yourself or another. If you have such a feeling please see a doctor.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Old Testament and the Jews.

According to the Old Testament, what happens to people when they die?

Do they just sustain an eternal unconscious death?

Death is as much a mystery to the human mind as life itself and perhaps more so.

We can't think through the minds of the dead as living entities in the flesh.

We can't see the world from the point of view of the dead.

We can't hear through dead person's ears.

We can't ask the dead of their death experience and expect to receive an answer from the dead person's lips. We can't ask the dead, "What is it like to be dead?"

Are the dead temporarily or permanently conscious or unconscious?

We living really know not much of the dead for a fact except what we can observe with our own senses. DEATH is a presumed state in the minds of the living anyway. No heartbeat, no breathing: the person is legally declared "dead". We can only observe the physical aspects of what we presume to be "death" and not the spiritual aspects.

Tom Berenger's sergeant character really posed a profound question his soldiers in the film Platoon, "What do you know about death?"

What is DEATH really?
What we call death is in my understanding only a change of consciousness and a change from the physical body to non-physical body back and forth. what is known as samsara in buddhism
 
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