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"Before Abraham 'was' I am"

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by LightofTruth, May 17, 2019.

  1. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The word "was" means 'to become' or 'to be born'. Jesus was NOT talking about Abraham's original birth but his being born from the dead.

    In John 8 the Jewish leaders were correct by stating that Abraham and the prophets were dead. Jesus too knew they were dead. However, Jesus is the resurrection and the life and though they be dead yet shall they live. Jesus' reply to the leaders shows that Abraham is to be born again from the dead. Jesus says, "Before Abraham is to become born I am". Jesus is the firstborn from the dead by his own resurrection from the dead and those to be born from the dead follow him.
     
  2. user4578

    user4578 Member

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    How would that interpretation at all answer the question posed to him?(You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?) At least if he answers in the past tense, omnipresently, he answers it to some degree, but if in the future, he's basically throwing a complete non-sequitur at them.
     
  3. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    It's obvious the Jews did not want to hear him. Jesus had said that Abraham, not Jesus, had seen Jesus' day and rejoiced. The Jews twist Jesus' words by supposing Jesus had said that he had seen Abraham. Jesus said no such thing. They also twisted his words, as do the translators, when he said "Before Abraham is to be born, I am". They suppose Jesus was speaking of Abraham's first birth. He was NOT!
     
  4. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I think this is too narrow. First, the church was started by Jews so to say "Jews did not want to hear him" is a statement that is way too narrow and sounds judgmental IMV.

    Second, the 12, the 70 and the multitude did believe.

    Third, there are many Gentiles, to this day, who don't believe either.

    Although I do believe that before Abraham was, I AM, is true, I find that how you express it is important.
     
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  5. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    Consider the context and perhaps you may not think it "is way too narrow..."
    The Jews had accused Jesus' teaching as being done by diabolical agency. John 8:52
     
  6. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus was a person but one who had the "essence" of God within him. Thus Jesus did not literally exist prior to Abraham but his "essence" did, using the symbolism that I believe is being referenced in the verse, imo.
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Jesus and the apostles were Jews, so obviously the verse cannot refer to all Jews, only some.
     
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  8. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    The "essence" of God that is in him is the Spirit of God. It is the Spirit of God that existed prior to Abraham and Jesus.
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Active Member

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    obviously.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    The you should qualify your post #5, imo, because it comes off as blaming all Jews.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    If you want not to look at it narrowly, then then context is found above that scripture:

    :13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.

    It wasn't "the Jews" but rather "some" of the Pharisees.

    So, I think I can stand on what I said lest you come across as being anti-semitic. How you express things is important... I should know, I have made my share of mistakes.
     
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  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, agree Jesus is first born from the dead, first fruits of the sleeping dead - 1 Corinthians 15:20-23
    Then, every man in his own rank or order.
    Those called to heavenly life, such as those of Luke 22:28-30, have that first or earlier resurrection - Revelation 20:6
    Whereas, the majority (John 3:13; Acts 2:34) have a later or future resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
    Since those who died before Jesus died, have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection back to live life on Earth,
    then, people like King David and Abraham will be part of the humble meek who will inherit the Earth.
     
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  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Genesis 1:26 helps answer because Jesus is part of the existing "us".
    Heavenly, or pre-human Jesus was the beginning of the creation by God as per Revelation 3:14.
    Since Jesus was used by his God in the creation of the physical/material realm of existence, thus before Abraham.
    Because the word ' father ' means: life giver, and Jesus is given the God-given right to the resurrection - Revelation 1:18,
    then, rightfully Jesus will be Abraham's father / life giver on Resurrection Day 'meaning Jesus' coming 1,000-year governmental rulership over Earth' when there will be a resurrection of the just and unjust - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
     
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  14. Zita

    Zita Solitary Eclectic Witch

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    I feel no one really knows what was said "if" anything! We weren't there.
     
  15. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    No!!! :eek:
     
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  16. Zita

    Zita Solitary Eclectic Witch

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    This is why when I address a topic, I try to make sure I say "its how I feel" or" think is so"!!I'm not claiming to be right or wrong in the eye sights of another, I can only speak out of "my belief", just as the next will express.
     
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  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I agree with the ^ above^ because in the previous chapter (John 7:11-32) opinions varied about Jesus - John 7:12.
    The people had concerns out of widespread fear of the reaction of the Jewish religious leaders.
    Those leaders in the previous year they wanted to kill Jesus for healing on the Sabbath.
    At the temple Jesus tells the Jews about himself at John 7:28-29.
    At his time MANY Jews put faith in Jesus - John 7:31
    ( But later at the time with Barabbas did they still put faith in Jesus ______)
    Thus, when the Pharisees hear the crowd, along with the chief priests, they send out officers to arrest Jesus.
    The crowd is divided - John 7:35-49.
    Some Jews say to Jesus the words of John 8:33; John 8:37-38; John 8:39-41; John 8:44,47 and Jesus answers them.
    Those particular Jews are angered - John 8:48-51. They take Jesus' words literally - John 8:52-53.
    The claim Jesus lived before Abraham enrages those Jews to want to stone Jesus instead of listening to him.
    I once read that according to one historian out of all the people Jesus encountered only 1% followed him.
    To me that helps explain Acts of the Apostles 2:22; 3:12-15 ( ye men of Israel ) because those Jews failed to bring Jesus to justice according to the Mosaic Law so they were culpable in sharing in the blood guilt of community responsibility.
    - Deuteronomy 21:1-9.
     
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  18. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews says the church is the church of 'the firstborn(plural)' the greek is plural so in a sense we are all firstborn in a sense
     
  19. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Good points. Jesus was answering a question about his age, not his deity.
    Basically he was alluding to his pre-human existence in heaven in stating that he was in existence before Abraham was even born.
     
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