Becoming less extreme because of Islam/sufism and Baha'i faith

[Spirit of Light]

If you wish to discuss something in private with the staff, create a thread in Site Feedback.

But back to the subject at hand, you suggested that some people see Sufism or Baha'i as extreme, horrible, hateful, or disgusting. I've asked you to provide some evidence that this is happening. You have not yet done so.

If you are going to accuse "some people" of doing something, you should present evidence support your accusation when asked to do so, otherwise it looks like you're just playing the victim.

If you wish to discuss something in private with the staff, create a thread in Site Feedback.

But back to the subject at hand, you suggested that some people see Sufism or Baha'i as extreme, horrible, hateful, or disgusting. I've asked you to provide some evidence that this is happening. You have not yet done so.

If you are going to accuse "some people" of doing something, you should present evidence support your accusation when asked to do so, otherwise it looks like you're just playing the victim.

I have just send admin feedback

Sorry for the trouble i creating

 

[F1fan]

Not everyone needs guidance. Those who thin k they do will be attracted to whatever a religion offers, and as we know there is a broad set of options in the world. So to be attracted to a moral religious perspective a person needs to be pretty stable already. Those who are not will find views that exploit flaws in personality, as most seek affirmation and meaning, not betterment.

Let's note that religions are idealistic and promote themselves as moral, so when good people are good theists there is no real surprise. It's when theists are bad that it raises concern and attention. Religions often fail to make bad people good, so we question it's use and utility.

 

[Stevicus]

Some people see Islam, Sufism and Baha'i as extreme and horrible. Even evil hateful and discusting.

But nobody talk about when those religions are the cause of a change to the better. Nobody talks about when a person find truth though those teachings, and become a better person with less hate, less judgment, less wish to harm self or others.

And you know why? Because they only focus on the extremists who damage the world, they forgetting to look at episodes that save people through the same religions they only see as hate and evil.

The way I see it, it's not the beliefs, in and of themselves, which are the problem. On an individual basis, I don't have any problem with what other people believe, even if I don't personally believe the same thing or if I don't see any factual basis for such a belief. But I also respect that other people see the world differently and might believe different things. In any case, it's no real skin off me. People are free to believe whatever they want, and it doesn't harm me in the slightest.

The problem that I see is what happens whenever people form a certain kind of malignant group mentality on whatever basis. Sometimes, people group together on the basis of religion, although sometimes it can also be based on race, nationality, political party, and even gender. Sometimes a group mentality can be benign, and sometimes it can be malignant, as one can likely find a number of examples throughout history.

Although, on a side note, I can't say I recall anyone saying that Sufism or Baha'i as being horrible or evil. I have a friend who is Baha'i, and I don't think he's horrible or evil. A bit strange, maybe, but that's okay, since I'm strange, too.

As for Islam, Western views on Islam seem rooted in things that go way back. Historically, there has been a long-term rivalry between the nations which practice Christianity and the nations which practice Islam. It almost seems like it's been a kind of "religious cold war" which has lasted more than a millennium. Although it wasn't always cold, as there were some pretty hot, bloody conflicts throughout that period.

I'd like to think that the world has grown up a bit since those earlier times, though it's not surprising that there are some old lingering attitudes rooted in the past.

Then there are those who might have their own reasons for being evil and horrible, and they just use religion or some other basis as some kind of pretext or vehicle to try to gain power. That's a human trait, not specific to any religion or nationality.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Historically, there has been a long-term rivalry between the nations which practice Christianity and the nations which practice Islam..

Yes .. it started even before Muhammad, peace be with him, was born !
i.e. the so-called Arian divide in Christianity

 

[Spiderman]

The OP speak about individual experience through the mentioned religions. You jump directly toward what OP said most critiques do. Only seeing the worsed of people.

I had a suicide attempt last month, and you know what.....it was my belief in Baha'i that saved me.
And you know why I did the attempt? Because of someone in RF.

Im very sorry to hear this. I encourage you, please stay strong in your faith, and please hang in there, try and stay happy, enjoy life, enjoy God. But please tell me, was your suicide attempt over anything I said?

 

[Spirit of Light]

Im very sorry to hear this. I encourage you, please stay strong in your faith, and please hang in there, try and stay happy, enjoy life, enjoy God. But please tell me, was your suicide attempt over anything I said?

My friend, no you have not done me wrong, and you are absolutely not the reason for what I did

 

[Spiderman]

My friend, no you have not done me wrong, and you are absolutely not the reason for what I did

Phew! I said some bad things about Islam, because I get very angry about laws and policies in some countries and regimes. I worried maybe I caused you too much pain and sorrow.

I didn't know you take posts at RF so seriously that it could lead you to a suicide attempt.

I guess that really teaches me that I need to be careful what I say online at a public forum. I never know how it might affect someone.

I really do bless you, you have my love. As long as you are charitable to others, treat others as you want to be treated, try to be humble, and pure of heart, try to be innocent and blameless, if that is what someone values, or cherishes, I respect whatever their religious practices are, and I encourage them to persist.

I hope you are feeling better. Hang in there, friend! You are always welcome to pm me, and I can even give you my phone number, if you ever want to chat , or feel suicidal. God bless!

 

[soulsurvivor]

Some people see Islam, Sufism and Baha'i as extreme and horrible. Even evil hateful and discusting....

I don't where you got this information from.

Nobody ever suggested Sufism and Bahai were extreme or horrible or evil or disgusting. Can you provide some links to back up your statement?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I don't where you got this information from.

Nobody ever suggested Sufism and Bahai were extreme or horrible or evil or disgusting. Can you provide some links to back up your statement?

Look at #23 in this OP

 

[King Phenomenon]

Some people see Islam, Sufism and Baha'i as extreme and horrible. Even evil hateful and discusting.

But nobody talk about when those religions are the cause of a change to the better. Nobody talks about when a person find truth though those teachings, and become a better person with less hate, less judgment, less wish to harm self or others.

And you know why? Because they only focus on the extremists who damage the world, they forgetting to look at episodes that save people through the same religions they only see as hate and evil.

plenty talk about the good

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Is this statement homophobic?... So this thread I added here, is totally fine to you, but the one I created then my response is not respectful enough???

Regarding being respectful, you are not that except with your own. You treat the rest as enemies to be feared and shunned. You don't respect any of the skeptics even when they are trying to help you. You express no gratitude or other positive feeling to anybody outside your subculture. It's all negative. It's all about how horrible such people are whatever their agenda or message if it isn't an atta-boy. That's an attitude that hurts you. It's been discussed with you in the past, but you didn't acknowledge seeing the words, also an attitude that costs you. You've cut yourself off from constructive input from all but other Baha'i.

And yes, that other thread is totally fine. As you know, the topic of homophobia in the Baha'i teachings was discussed in another thread before that one. Several Baha'i stated that they themselves had no antipathy for gays, and a few even said that it's no body's business what consenting adults do behind closed doors. But none would agree explicitly that the writings were homophobic, nor denounce them despite their consciences not allowing them to embrace the idea "Homosexuality is an evil passion, immoral, shameful aberration, to be purged from the world". This is no doubt what motivated you to write "Some people see Islam, Sufism and Baha'i as extreme and horrible. Even evil hateful and disgusting."

You also say that you will not judge others, and seem to see such judgment as a fault, although that's what the human brain does continuously with everything including other people, and it is a good and necessary function of a mind. And even if you don't see it, you do it constantly yourself. It's what you do when you interpret dissent as attack. It's what I do when I interpret it as constructive discussion.

You seem to have painted yourself into a corner psychologically. I have offered you a different prospective to consider, but you aren't interested in opinions from non-Baha'i, who can't help you except to reassure you, like somebody visiting you in the hospital. I'm reminded of the antivaxxers on social media in the hospital with Covid, whose support teams were generally other antivaxxers telling them that they were praying for them while reinforcing how evil Fauci is and how dangerous the vaccines are. They were in the same boat - cut off from good advice from people they distrusted. They painted themselves into the same corner - a distrust of sources of genuine usefulness and a preference for the consolation of religious reassurances. Oh, well.

I see your religious teaching as being counterproductive if it is teaching you to be less judgmental and less assertive, which, like many other theists, you equate with excessive ego. Despite Jesus' words to the contrary, there is nothing blessed about meekness. My advice would be to go in the opposite direction to develop more self-confidence and fortitude. The suicide thing is unfortunate, but think about what it says about your spirit and how vulnerable it is if the words of RF posters make you want to leave the world. And it's unfortunate that you blame others for your problems. To you, it's their meanness making you feel this way, a judgment that will impede you solving that matter.

The thread you linked to is not what you perceive it to be. You're encountering another intellectual tradition - humanism. Humanists aren't being mean when they address homophobia in religion. Au contraire. They are promoting reasonableness, tolerance, fairness, and justice. That poster wants you and all Baha'i who don't feel antipathy for gays to confront what he (and I) feels is a doctrine that needs to be repudiated in every religion in which it appears, and for those religions that won't do that, the religion needs to be repudiated. That's what humanists do.

Why? Are you aware that that homophobia often leads to EXACTLY the same problem for many LGBTQ people, but in their case, unlike yours, they are correct that they are being subjected to meanness. I know you're an empathetic person, but I don't think you have the resolve to stand up for what you know is right if it means taking a position against any Baha'i teaching. That is the meekness to which I refer, a word frequently confused with humility, deference, or politeness, none of which preclude fortitude or taking a stand.

And why should you take advice from an Internet stranger? You shouldn't. You should consider it, and you should discuss it with others apart from fellow Baha'i. A good start would be to engage this post as if it might have something of value in it for you. Be strong. I'm not here to hurt you. Really.

And with that, I'll leave you with some song lyrics from Bob Weir's Walk In The Sunshine, the first line of which is, "Look out 'cause here comes some free advice" followed by some unsolicited life advice:

 

[icehorse]

Some people see Islam, Sufism and Baha'i as extreme and horrible. Even evil hateful and discusting.

But nobody talk about when those religions are the cause of a change to the better. Nobody talks about when a person find truth though those teachings, and become a better person with less hate, less judgment, less wish to harm self or others.

And you know why? Because they only focus on the extremists who damage the world, they forgetting to look at episodes that save people through the same religions they only see as hate and evil.

I would say that when someone becomes a better person, it's in spite of Islam, not because of Islam. Either that, or that person isn't reading the Quran or their teacher isn't reading the Quran. And if the Quran isn't involved, how can you call yourself a follower of Islam?

As for focusing only on extremists, I disagree. As a matter of statistics, there are very few extremists. What concerns me is the hundreds of millions of Islamists, who wish to be ruled by Sharia.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would say that when someone becomes a better person, it's in spite of Islam..

See Rules for Interfaith Disscussion Forum..
--> Reminder: No Debating in Interfaith Discussion

 

[Spirit of Light]

I would say that when someone becomes a better person, it's in spite of Islam, not because of Islam. Either that, or that person isn't reading the Quran or their teacher isn't reading the Quran. And if the Quran isn't involved, how can you call yourself a follower of Islam?

As for focusing only on extremists, I disagree. As a matter of statistics, there are very few extremists. What concerns me is the hundreds of millions of Islamists, who wish to be ruled by Sharia.

I read Baha'i teaching now, but I was a sufi you know, probably a bit of sufism within me still.

 

[icehorse]

See Rules for Interfaith Disscussion Forum..
--> Reminder: No Debating in Interfaith Discussion

The OP listed Islam, Sufism, and Baha'i as all being part of the same collection. I think that's a mistake. I think Baha'i is fundamentally very, very distinct from Islam.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The OP listed Islam, Sufism, and Baha'i as all being part of the same collection. I think that's a mistake. I think Baha'i is fundamentally very, very distinct from Islam.

I will not debate you here.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The OP listed Islam, Sufism, and Baha'i as all being part of the same collection. I think that's a mistake. I think Baha'i is fundamentally very, very distinct from Islam.

I listed it that way, because it is the path i have taken, firstvin to sunni islam, then sufism and now Baha'i faith.

 

[icehorse]

I will not debate you here.

It's interesting to try to draw the line between debate and conversation. I'm not the only poster in this thread who felt that the claim in the OP was shaky. So can a conversation contain a disagreement without becoming a debate?

 

[icehorse]

I listed it that way, because it is the path i have taken, firstvin to sunni islam, then sufism and now Baha'i faith.

That's good to know, thanks. But you still lumped all three into the same category, and I think you do a disservice to Baha'i when you do that

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's good to know, thanks. But you still lumped all three into the same category, and I think you do a disservice to Baha'i when you do that

Oh