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Becoming "born again"

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by Eddi, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

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    In January there will be an opportunity for me to be baptised by being fully immersed in water

    I very much want to do this, to have a new start, a fresh page – to be born again

    But to be meaningfully born again what else must I do? How must I change the way I live?

    Edit: I am haunted by a demon so that's a factor!
     
    #1 Eddi, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
  2. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Which gospel have you believed?
     
  3. Eddi

    Eddi reformed crackpot

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    Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John
     
  4. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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  5. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    Well done for beginning the born again process :) Before baptism we need a new heart placed within us. Through the expression of a ‘broken and a contrite heart’ in the book of Psalms, David shows that in the Old Testament, the prophets were well aware that all their sacrificing of animals was to no avail, if their hearts were not right before God. The animal sacrifices were there to remind them of the Messiah who would come to take away their sins, but what God really wanted was the changing of peoples’ hearts to move them away from sin entirely. Confessing with our mouths that Jesus is the Christ is not the last tick in the box on our ticket to heaven, but only the first. Next is to have our very hearts changed, and our spirits brought in line with that of the Saviour. God has described the type of people who will dwell in the glory of heaven with him by saying, ‘For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones’ [Isaiah 57:15].

    While the Old Testament describes how we should feel about repentance, the New Testament describes the practicalities of what we should do. The Elders and Chief Priests in the New Testament asked many questions that were designed to entrap Jesus, so he used parables to teach principles of righteousness in a manner that cannot be denied by a reasonable person no matter what their faith may be. On one occasion he taught the following: ‘But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you’ [Matthew 21:28–31].

    When a person repents, they then do the will of the Father or risk becoming an ‘empty vessel’ or a ‘well with no water’. Regardless of our previous decisions, it is the life-changing process of repentance that means our final destination is determined by our decisions of today and not by those of the past. A child learning to ride a bike may fall off multiple times, but each attempt is one step closer to their goal; so it is with our journey to becoming like the Lord. We may fail many times to live up to his standard, but if we repent and get back up, our sins may not be abject failures, but stepping stones along the path to perfection.
    The very best place to read the Saviours instruction to his followers is MATTHEW 5 - MATTHEW 7. Have a prayer in your heart as you read these 3 chapters and the Lord will guide you from there.
    I hope this is helpful I wish you God Speed!
    PS: Luke 11:24-26 is counteracted by 2 Corinthians 9:8 if that helps your second question
     
    #5 Andrew Twain, Nov 15, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
  6. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I was told by many Trinitarian sects that I was not a Christian because I don't believe in a Trinity God.

    But the apostle Peter wasn't a Trinitarian either. When Jesus asked Peter who he was, Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the son of the living God".
    So, according to the Trinitarian sects, Peter wasn't a Christian either.

    The other reason they kick me out is because I believe Adam returned to the dust he was made from.
     
  7. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    What's your demon?
     
  8. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    You are correct. The Trinity idea was put there by people after the death of Christ and after the death of th he Apostles. It is incorrect and you are wise to avoid it. The Catholic church said anyone who does not believe it will not be saved. That is sad for them as they are the ones who created it and will fall into the same pit which they digged to condemn all of us who don't follow their tradions.

    Jesus seemed to address the future trinity creeds when he said, ‘...If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word’ [John 8:42–43]. Jesus wanted to return to that same glorious position with God, the Father, in eternity after he was crucified in the flesh. We find Jesus praying to his father in the Garden of Gethsemane with this fervent plea: ‘And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was’ [John 17:1–5]. From this prayer we can see that Jesus lived with God before he came to the earth, was sent by God to do his work, and that he wanted to return back into his presence, restored to his former glory after his death. Rather than being a prayer to himself, or humanity metaphorically praying to deity, this was a heartfelt heavenly phone call back home to his Dad, as the son was about to take his final, painful, set of exams.

    Adam was made from the dust of the earth and would have returned to the dust until his ressurection. We all also return to the dust of the earth from whence we were formed.
    Is this what you meant?
     
  9. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure Jesus lived with God before he was born?

    Listen to what Jesus told his disciples,

    Mat 10:16 "Behold, I am sending you out like sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. But beware of people, because they will hand you over to councils, and they will flog you in their synagogues. And you will be brought before both governors and kings because of me, for a witness to them and to the Gentiles. But whenever they hand you over, do not be anxious how to speak or what you should say, for what you should say will be given to you at that hour. For you are not the ones who are speaking, but the Spirit of your Father who is speaking through you."

    If the Spirit of the Father could be the one speaking through Jesus' disciples, and not the disciples speaking, could it not also be the Spirit of the Father speaking through Jesus?
     
  10. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    Hi There Light,

    Please forgive me for not understanding your question regarding Matthew 10:16. It does not seem to relate to whether Jesus lived with God before he was born. Hopefully the following will answer your question to me:

    In the Beginning
    In Hebrew it is written 'In the beginning [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth'. At some point in eternity, our time line began, starting with the creation of our earth and the heavens in our firmament. Here we find the ‘Supreme God’ giving instruction to his 'Son by birth', on what they should do. The relationship that existed in eternity continues still today and has never been a oneness of the Trinitarian type, which the church threatened us with Hell if we did not believe. This fear of hell has perpetuated the dogma for over a millennia and has influenced the psyche of the public for long enough.
    Context:
    The book of Genesis, chapter one in Hebrew, has 31 references to 'Elohim' creating the heavens and the earth. The term 'Elohim' can have a pluralistic nature as it can refer to ‘Gods’, rather than a singular 'El' for a single God depending on the context, but was the plural term originally used? To clarify the context it is necessary to look at the wider chapter to see what is going on. We know that mid-flow of the creation there is a pause while the Gods talk to each other and say 'Let us make man in our image'. The plural use of the terms ‘us’ and ‘our’ give context that while one of the Gods may have been giving the command, they were both unified in one purpose during the creation. From this context we can apply the term 'Gods' to the original word 'Elohim'. However, as the scriptures attest, in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. So context can be assisted by a second narrative in another Testament.

    New Testament:
    We have a number of Greek copies of the original new testament text, so, despite being subject to the same transmission errors from the original to the copy, we have enough to ensure some measure of clarity on various topics.
    'God... Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds' [Hebrews 1:1-3].
    The word 'Theos' translated as 'God' more specifically means 'The supreme God' in ancient Greek. He created the heavens and the earth by his 'Son' which is a translation of 'Hyios' that means 'son by birth or adoption'. The chapter goes on to declare:
    'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.'
    Next, God, the supreme Theos, states publically that he has anointed Jesus Christ, his Son by birth, to become a God:
    ‘Your throne, O God [Jesus], is for ever and ever, the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God [Supreme God], has anointed you [Jesus, the Son] with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.’
    Now to list the great accomplishments that his Son has achieved, God the Father states once again, that it was Jesus who made the heavens and the earth:
    ‘You, Lord [Jesus], laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands... sit at my right hand’ [Hebrews 1:1-13 ESV].
    You can almost taste the joy that the Father has in his son though these verses. Context about who created the heavens and the earth -and who was present in the beginning- is given by the book of Hebrews, along with a second witness of the same. The supreme God had anointed his Son, who was Lord over the whole earth, to be a God, and sit by his right hand side as an heir of Heaven. It was to this exalted station that Jesus was referring, when he prayed in Gethsemane.
    ‘And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.’ [John 17: 5-24]
    Jesus, Yahweh, the King (and God) of Israel [Deut. 32:8-9], lived with the Supreme God, his father, in the eternities as a separate and individual God. I believe that God has anointed his son with the oil of gladness and dwells in unity with him, as they both call upon us to join them as joint heirs, [Romans 8:17] and enter into their glory.

    If is for these reasons taken from Genesis and Hebrews, that I firmly believe Jesus lived with God before his birth, and indeed before the creation occurred.
     
  11. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe in immaterial spirit persons.The spirit of the Father is personified but is not a person. the person is the Father.
     
  12. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    You are quite right; there there is no such thing as an immaterial spirit. I'm not sure what that has to do with the Trinity, but you are right about spirits being made up of real 'stuff' :)
     
  13. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Jesus didn't go from having a glorified body to having a mortal body and then back to a glorified body again. The glory of a glorified body comes from the spirit of the Father. I think it was the spirit of the Father speaking through Jesus when Jesus said "Father, glorify me with the glory i had with you...."
     
  14. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    Once again you are right... Jesus did not have a body and flesh and bones before he came to the earth. His ressurected body is flesh and bone as demonstarted after his resurrection in Luke 24:39.

    Jesus lived with the Glory (and personage) of his Father in Heaven before his birth and wanted to return back to live in his glorious presence once again after his death (as previously shown in Hebrews and in Gethsemane in John 17)
     
  15. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    I think the idea of Jesus actually existing before he was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary is false.
     
  16. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    I understand we all see things differently. To me, Hebrews 1 in connection with John 1:1-2 is clear enough, but despite disagreeing, it is a pleasure to talk to someone who cares about these things :) Thank you
     
  17. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    If immaterial spirits don't exist and Jesus didn't have a body before being conceived of the Holy Spirit, in what way did he exist before being conceived?
     
  18. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    Jesus was a spirit before be was born to Mary. He lived with God in Heaven as a spirit. When he came to the earth he put on physical form. After his death we know from Luke that he continued to have a physical body (with the exception of not having blood which is perhaps a symbol of corruption). When I mentioned that I do not believe in immaterial spirits, I did not say I did not believe in spirits. They must be made of something. Even though I cannot touch air, does not mean air it is made of nothing. I cannot limit God to my own lack of knowledge of his science.
    The scriptures speak of Jesus living with God before his birth to Mary. One day, I will ask God how it all works. For me, for now, I trust him. He is our father after all ;-)
     
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  19. LightofTruth

    LightofTruth Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your honesty. All the best friend.
     
  20. Andrew Twain

    Andrew Twain Member

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    ... and you too my friend
     
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