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Bechdel Test- Gender Bias in Movies

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
When you consider that the test is so very simple, 54% is not very impressive; mind you I am more interested in those that fulfill at least 2 of the 3 criteria, 65%, which I personally find quite horribly low.

The 54% might perhaps be attributable to having a smaller cast, having a more central story line etc - yet the 65% simply indicates that what ever female characters are involved, they are not actually interacting to any considerable extent, that instead, their interaction is through discussions with males.

Now personally I would prefer the shawshank redemption/private ryan type movies be removed from such statistics prior to comparing them, but even then, it still seems far too low.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a graph from bechdeltest.com. It actually shows that 53% of the movies in their databases pass the test.


tests.png
I know.

In the OP I said nearly half of movies don't pass it. The other slightly-more-than-half of movies pass it.

But you'll see that the pass-rate for the male version of this test for popular movies would be far, far higher. Let me know if you can think of 3 movies that you really, really like where there isn't a single instance of two men talking to each other.

(And one third of movies, the orange and red parts, don't even have females talking with each other at all, even about a man. Only that yellow chunk consists of movies where women do talk but it's exclusively about a man.)
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
To grossly oversimplify the perception - men relate better to male leads; are simple and thus like simple movies; therefore most films aimed at men will have a male lead, will have a relatively simple style and therefore communication will be either between the male lead and someone else, or actually about the male lead. I agree it is sexism, but it is a sexism based on perceived audience behavior.
There is indeed broad sexism. I've participated in a few threads where sexism in general was the topic, and noticed that some guys don't see an imbalance. So this thread quantifies a very specific subset of the imbalance: depiction of women in films.

What do you think it says about sexism and culture that men relate better to male leads? Do women have this problem?

I like Christopher Nolan's Batman. I liked the Star Trek reboot. I'm really looking forward to Man of Steel. I thought Star Wars was okay, and really appreciated Han Solo's character, Obi-wan, etc. I mostly liked Lord of the Rings, including the dynamic characters of Boromir and Gandalf. I liked Indiana Jones even though all four movies didn't even have a single instance of two women having a conversation about anything at all (even a man). Come on George Lucas, seriously. I loved Morpheus and Agent Smith from the Matrix. I liked Fight Club even though it was a movie specifically about guys and as part of the storyline they specifically excluded women from their club. I liked Lion King and Aladdin, including the male characters of Aladdin, Jafar, Simba, Mufasa, and Scar. I liked Michael Clayton and the dudes in it. I liked Valkyrie and the dudes in it. I liked Saving Private Ryan and Shawshank Redemption even though they almost completely lacked any females.

What percentage of men and women do you think went to see Dark Knight Rises compared to the percentage of men and women that go and see any examples of the smaller subset of popular movies that fail the Bechdel test for men?

A lot of women go and see movies that are mainly created by men and about men. Sure, I really like it when there's a female character, especially in the leading role, but I'm not picky either way. Gender is a small component of character. I'm only picky when popular movie after popular movie seems to be a total dude-fest where two women don't even speak to each other in an entire trilogy and then my co-workers are like "I don't see why more women don't like this."

When you consider that the test is so very simple, 54% is not very impressive; mind you I am more interested in those that fulfill at least 2 of the 3 criteria, 65%, which I personally find quite horribly low.

The 54% might perhaps be attributable to having a smaller cast, having a more central story line etc - yet the 65% simply indicates that what ever female characters are involved, they are not actually interacting to any considerable extent, that instead, their interaction is through discussions with males.

Now personally I would prefer the shawshank redemption/private ryan type movies be removed from such statistics prior to comparing them, but even then, it still seems far too low.
Yup I think it should be over 90% probably.

To any guys that think 50% is acceptable, I'm happy to hear what their favorite movies are where two men never talk to each other.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Let me know if you can think of 3 movies that you really, really like where there isn't a single instance of two men talking to each other.

It's probably not going to happen, I have never paid attention to it. If not for this list I wouldn't be able to name any with two women talking either. I don't think I pay attention to gender in films, just story and setting. I'm somewhat asexual so people are just people to me, I don't care about their genitalia.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
As a side note, I've written a few pieces of fiction, and in all of them without having specifically intended to do so, I have male/male conversations, male/female conversations, and female/female conversations.

It just seems natural to not completely minimize an entire gender. I'd either have to go out of my way to do it, or I'd have to view guys as fairly unimportant where I somehow write a long work without bothering to include two men talking to each other about something important.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Yup I think it should be over 90% probably.

To any guys that think 50% is acceptable, I'm happy to hear what their favorite movies are where two men never talk to each other.

Almost any episode from the classic Tom and Jerry. :D

(Okay, I don't think 50% is acceptable at all, but I couldn't resist that.)
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's probably not going to happen, I have never paid attention to it. If not for this list I wouldn't be able to name any with two women talking either. I don't think I pay attention to gender in films, just story and setting. I'm somewhat asexual so people are just people to me, I don't care about their genitalia.
I think you'd notice a bit more if like 50% of the movies you watch don't include a single instance of two men talking about something other than a woman, at all. For no apparent reason.

Familiarity blindness plays a role, methinks. It's easy not to notice if your gender is the gender that's everywhere and where the other gender is largely interacting with your gender. Gender/sex is more than just genitalia; it's how they look, how they talk, what roles they get, etc. I mean I don't know for sure what the genitalia of any of my favorite actors or actresses look like but that's not the point. And it's an overall argument about sexism in culture, not just a complaint about movies.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Almost any episode from the classic Tom and Jerry. :D

(Okay, I don't think 50% is acceptable at all, but I couldn't resist that.)

You know what, it's been a while since I watched it, but I think I Am Legend doesn't show two men talking. It shows two women talking though. Dredd is another one where the men are one dimensional, throw-away characters and unless we count that shootout with Dredd and that other judge at the end, I don't think two named males talk to each other.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
I believe women probably relate better to female leads; yet given the prevalence of male leads and the changing nature of social gender roles I beleive it is probably less marked in women than the reverse is in men (purely from my own reasoning).

In addition (though I admit my own perception on this part is quite sexist) women are probably more nuanced in their evaluation of entertainment then men, at least traditionally, it seems women are probably better able to find a movie entertaining despite having an element they find particularly annoying, men on the other hand seem to judge a movie with a similar level of unappealing aspects more harshly.

Both of these approaches would have direct economic outcomes, the former seems to indicate film makers can take female audiences for granted to some extent, while the later seems to indicate that film makers need to avoid things they believe will detract from a male's judgement of the film experience. I believe though that film makers are beginning to realise (took long enough :/ ) just how immense this market is, potentially it is a significantly larger market than male targetted films (since as you mentioned, many male targetted films benefited from significant female patronage).
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Almost any episode from the classic Tom and Jerry. :D

(Okay, I don't think 50% is acceptable at all, but I couldn't resist that.)
They're still males though (although there was limited speculation that Jerry was maybe a female lesbian or a male crossdresser due to a couple of the episodes). Either character in that could just as easily have been female. There's just not a lot of talking.

The Looney Toons in general are highly skewed towards males. They're almost all guys.

For movies with animals that talk and have a clear male or female voice, that counts for all intents and purposes as male/female for this.

So for example Lion King fails the Bechdel test for women, but passes it for men because Simba, Scar, Mufasa, the baboon, Timon and Pumbaa have various conversations but there are comparatively few females like Nala.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You know what, it's been a while since I watched it, but I think I Am Legend doesn't show two men talking. It shows two women talking though. Dredd is another one where the men are one dimensional, throw-away characters and unless we count that shootout with Dredd and that other judge at the end, I don't think two named males talk to each other.
In I am Legend, there is very little dialogue.

But Will Smith talks with a male soldier, and he does have interaction with the woman's son a bit. Plus he talks to the male zombie who kind of roars back.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe women probably relate better to female leads; yet given the prevalence of male leads and the changing nature of social gender roles I beleive it is probably less marked in women than the reverse is in men (purely from my own reasoning).

In addition (though I admit my own perception on this part is quite sexist) women are probably more nuanced in their evaluation of entertainment then men, at least traditionally, it seems women are probably better able to find a movie entertaining despite having an element they find particularly annoying, men on the other hand seem to judge a movie with a similar level of unappealing aspects more harshly.

Both of these approaches would have direct economic outcomes, the former seems to indicate film makers can take female audiences for granted to some extent, while the later seems to indicate that film makers need to avoid things they believe will detract from a male's judgement of the film experience. I believe though that film makers are beginning to realise (took long enough :/ ) just how immense this market is, potentially it is a significantly larger market than male targetted films (since as you mentioned, many male targetted films benefited from significant female patronage).
I might agree, but I'm sure you'd see how that would even be more problematic.

Rather than simply being a limited problem of writers under-representing women, there certainly could be a broader cultural aspect where men are less interested in female leads and are generally more interested in the development of male characters and are okay with undeveloped female characters or female characters that only interact with the developed male characters.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
This is a graph from bechdeltest.com. It actually shows that 53% of the movies in their databases pass the test.


tests.png

That's about right. Consider though, a couple of things. One the list is relatively new. 3900 movies really isn't the fullest example. Most of them are from newer movies, and a lot of them are independent as well. It's almost like a review sight more than a historical collection, so bare that in mind. This is a website maintained by people who know well what the Bechdel Test and watch a lot of movies, so there are going to be a lot of things added specifically because of the fact they pass.

Notice though how all the classics aren't here. Can you imagine what the graph would look like if all the oldies were taken into consideration?
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Familiarity blindness plays a role, methinks. It's easy not to notice if your gender is the gender that's everywhere and where the other gender is largely interacting with your gender. Gender/sex is more than just genitalia; it's how they look, how they talk, what roles they get, etc. I mean I don't know for sure what the genitalia of any of my favorite actors or actresses look like but that's not the point. And it's an overall argument about sexism in culture, not just a complaint about movies.

That's just it though, to me gender is just genitalia. I don't see people as male or female, just people. Just another animal to me. I don't pick out gender in a herd of zebra, why would I do it in a group of people. But that's just me and I realize that gender is of some importance to other members of the species, I may not understand why, but I get it. My issue is with the test itself. It's incomplete. In order to compare how much representation women get in media there should have been a reverse test on the same database so we can compare the statistics side by side. Until then it doesn't prove anything, and even after that it still may not prove anything as it has been pointed out that some movies are not female friendly but pass and others are but fail.
 

InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
I do indeed see that might be a problem, I believe however it is currently at least a perceived (I would suggest correctly atm) characteristic of many male audiences; that does not mean it is not a problem though (I acknowledge I myself have a significant preference for male leads and note this to be a limiting factor on my capacity to enjoy entertainment) and indeed believe more nuanced and central promotion of gender neutral roles (that can be as easily filled by male and female actors) to be a significant mitigating factor for such social perceptions.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
BTW, it's not like, just because a movie doesn't pass the test, doesn't mean it's not a great movie.

But I agree that it's tiresome seeing the pattern, and really reflects societies' difficulties with meaningful cultural output.

I think the most tiresome thing at this point is the hero cycle. I really can't stand watching it anymore. There are some I love of course. The others I dislike are the existential hero stories, where the protagonist's journey is all very much eternal, and the boon is for basically no one other than the protagonist, a new form of understanding. I dislike this one as well.

I think the hero cycle reflect a psychological human desire for triumph, which is why it is so prevalent and benefits children. But the hero cycle in no way reflects reality.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
In I am Legend, there is very little dialogue.

But Will Smith talks with a male soldier, and he does have interaction with the woman's son a bit. Plus he talks to the male zombie who kind of roars back.

Children and zombies are stretching it a bit, and I thought we were just using named characters. The male soldier was more or less just a prop.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That's about right. Consider though, a couple of things. One the list is relatively new. 3900 movies really isn't the fullest example. Most of them are from newer movies, and a lot of them are independent as well. It's almost like a review sight more than a historical collection, so bare that in mind. This is a website maintained by people who know well what the Bechdel Test and watch a lot of movies, so there are going to be a lot of things added specifically because of the fact they pass.

Notice though how all the classics aren't here. Can you imagine what the graph would look like if all the oldies were taken into consideration?
The website does include older movies, but is indeed more focused on newer ones. I don't know if that has to do with the volume of annually produced movies or not.

Here's the chart that shows the changing percentages over time for each year.
Red = Fewer than two named women. ('Named' generally includes 'important' characters too, even if they don't explicitly have a name. Often they at least have a name in credits.)
Orange = There are 2+ named women but they never speak to each other.
Yellow = There are 2+ named women and they speak only about a man.
Green = There's at least one instance where 2+ named women speak about something other than a man.

There's a long way to go but at least it's improving over time.

years.png
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Notice though how all the classics aren't here. Can you imagine what the graph would look like if all the oldies were taken into consideration?

I don't really think the classics should be part of this list. That is blaming the child for the sins of the father. The classics aren't representative of my generation, so why should they be included in a list about my generations culture?
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Children and zombies are stretching it a bit, and I thought we were just using named characters. The male soldier was more or less just a prop.
There are hardly any characters in the movie to begin with.

Do two named women even talk? A presumably unnamed female interviewer asks a question to the female doctor. I don't recall if Will Smith's daughter character talked with her mother at some point or not; that would be the only chance for the movie to pass the Bechdel test for women.
 
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