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Because Adam sinned....

arcanum

Active Member
Even as a child, when I started to question how a perfect god could have created this very imperfect world and very imperfect man could have taken place. Well the stock christian answer to this is "because Adam sinned" which never sat right with me and always seemed pretty far fetched and very unintuitive. It's like a car manufacturer making a car and then blaming the car for all it's dysfunctional attributes. I have this argument with my older brother who still believes this argument, it just doesn't make any rational sense and when you really think about it it's a total cop out. The fact that all of humanity should be tainted because of the first man's so called poor decision, which is utterly absurd, that humanity collectively should be forever punished for this act, really? And due to man's innate nature I'd wager if you had a hundred different Adam's, over half and probably more would have eaten the fruit because man is what he is, a very flawed and easily influenced creature. For Christians those who still believe this I'd like to hear your argument on why you still believe this. I haven't looked in to the origins of this idea yet but I highly doubt that it was part of the belief system of the early church and probably came along with St Augustine but I could be wrong. Either way it makes no sense and I reject it.
 

arcanum

Active Member
I find it interesting that people can declare that God does not punish the children for the sins of the parents in one breath and in the very next breath declare original sin.
That's a good point, interestingly there is precedent for that in Judaism as recorded in the new testament where it was asked of a blind man's predicament who sinned himself or his parents. But that 's more of a karmic rather than a collective belief tenet, which is interesting in and of itself and shows there was no such belief in original sin back when the NT was being written.
 
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McBell

Resident Sourpuss
That's a good point, but interestingly there is precedent for that in Judaism as reflected in the new testament where it was asked of a blind man's predicament who sinned himself or his parents. But that isn't any sort of reflection on collective original sin, which the Jews reject fwiw.
original sin is not the only example of god punishing the children for the sins of the parents.
Deuteronomy 23:2
Exodus 20:5-6
Deuteronomy 5:9
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
I think there are two elements to it:
1. It deflects sin from the self.
2. It betrays a belief that authority figures should not have responsibility.
 

arcanum

Active Member
original sin is not the only example of god punishing the children for the sins of the parents.
Deuteronomy 23:2
Exodus 20:5-6
Deuteronomy 5:9
Those scripture quotations portray a very mean spirited and very insecure god. Love me or else things will go very bad for you and your whole family line, sounds a bit like a mob boss doesn't it?;)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Even as a child, when I started to question how a perfect god could have created this very imperfect world and very imperfect man could have taken place. Well the stock christian answer to this is "because Adam sinned" which never sat right with me and always seemed pretty far fetched and very unintuitive. It's like a car manufacturer making a car and then blaming the car for all it's dysfunctional attributes. I have this argument with my older brother who still believes this argument, it just doesn't make any rational sense and when you really think about it it's a total cop out. The fact that all of humanity should be tainted because of the first man's so called poor decision, which is utterly absurd, that humanity collectively should be forever punished for this act, really? And due to man's innate nature I'd wager if you had a hundred different Adam's, over half and probably more would have eaten the fruit because man is what he is, a very flawed and easily influenced creature. For Christians those who still believe this I'd like to hear your argument on why you still believe this. I haven't looked in to the origins of this idea yet but I highly doubt that it was part of the belief system of the early church and probably came along with St Augustine but I could be wrong. Either way it makes no sense and I reject it.
I agree with your analysis but I think many may be spending too much energy over-analyzing this ancient story again and again. A more important question today for many of us non-believers of that story might be 'what do we believe' as opposed to what we don't believe.
 

Flame

Beware
Those scripture quotations portray a very mean spirited and very insecure god. Love me or else things will go very bad for you and your whole family line, sounds a bit like a mob boss doesn't it?;)

GdfthrColl_Still_H5_L.jpg


God is Vito Corleone.;)
 

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Yep, the god of Christianity is a monster. Luckily there's no need to believe anyone or anything at face value.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
For those who bother thinking about their Christianity, ignorance and a good deal of denial go into preserving the faith. Christianity, like all other religions, survives because it fulfills psychological needs, not because of any inherent truth.


.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that people can declare that God does not punish the children for the sins of the parents in one breath and in the very next breath declare original sin.
"'The LORD is slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, forgiving iniquity and transgression, but he will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of fathers upon children, upon the third and upon the fourth generation.'" - Num 14:18

vs

"The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Eze 18:20
 

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
Read this first and ponder it: http://dlibrary.acu.edu.au/staffhome/dacasey/Tolkien.htm

It's a great essay about J.R.R. Tolkien's theological vision, which is inherently Catholic and quite beautiful, imo.

God's children - all sentient beings - are co-creators with God. God is like a conductor of a grand cosmic symphony. He leads, but He allows His children to add their own unique contributions to the score, which is the fabric of existence. When it comes to the Fall - both Angelic and human - this was the introduction of discord and disunity among His children. It was egoistic, vain and short-sighted - small-minded. Adam and Eve are ultimately all of us, rather than just strictly two people from the mists of pre-history, insofar as they were meant to be historical figures at all. They represent all of us. Moreover, creation was apparently never "perfect" to begin with. Creation is also a process, not a one-time event. God is still creating, we are still adding to the score and destiny is still unfolding. We are participants in the divinization of the world.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
I find it interesting that people can declare that God does not punish the children for the sins of the parents in one breath and in the very next breath declare original sin.
Yes so true, this is one thing that frustrated me as a Christian, and also one reason why I left.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Adam to me was simply a story of our breakaway from the Source to become a so called mortal, but we should never forget that our true Self is immortal with God, in truth there was never a breakaway, its all in our mind.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This question is to any of my Muslim friends on this forum. Does Islam believe in the concept of original sin as Christianity does?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Even as a child, when I started to question how a perfect god could have created this very imperfect world and very imperfect man could have taken place. Well the stock christian answer to this is "because Adam sinned" which never sat right with me and always seemed pretty far fetched and very unintuitive.

Don't we first of all have to ask "why" Adam sinned? And why his sin falls on our shoulders?

Do you value free will? Would you rather God have created robotic creatures who just operated on instinct or programming like machinery? He did not give animals a multitude of choices to enhance their existence....that is exclusively for his children, made in his image, both angelic and human.
Have you ever seen a cow or a sheep admiring a beautiful sunset....or preparing a meal for company.....or planning what they will do for the summer? We alone are made in God's image and we alone were given choices as to what we would do with an imagined outcome to our activities. We alone can plan for tomorrow, or next week, or next year because we have a concept of past, present and future. Animals have no idea why they do anything.....they are just programmed for life and procreation, for the perpetuation of their kinds....all very self sufficient. We are created to be dependent on our Creator. (Jer 10:23)

It's like a car manufacturer making a car and then blaming the car for all it's dysfunctional attributes. I have this argument with my older brother who still believes this argument, it just doesn't make any rational sense and when you really think about it it's a total cop out.

Don't car manufacturers test their products for defects? When they find a defect, what do they do? They devise a way to fix it and then recall all the affected vehicles so that repairs can be made. God has issued the recall and we are waiting for the repair work to begin.

If free will wasn't free, then we wouldn't be able to make choices...even bad ones. It wasn't a mistake to give it to us....it was meant to be a gift. But the gift turned into a curse when defective humans began to impose their will on others. "Man dominates man to his injury" Solomon said.

Adam made a bad choice and it affected his children genetically like an inherited disease. (Romans 5:12) There was no way for humans to fix this on their own, so God devised the perfect way to "fix" mankind and sent his best 'mechanic' to implement the repairs. It was then written into a manual so that anyone in the future would be able to see how it happened, and how it was fixed, should there ever be a breakdown again.

The fact that all of humanity should be tainted because of the first man's so called poor decision, which is utterly absurd, that humanity collectively should be forever punished for this act, really?

Who said that mankind is collectively punished forever because of what Adam did? God opened the way for his adversary to prove that independence from God works better than obedience to him. There is no better way to demonstrate to mankind collectively that he is the better ruler, than to allow his opposition to fail utterly.

Every human alive will have either chosen Yahweh as his God or he will have abandoned him and upheld the devil's claim that man is better of without God's interference in his life. Every human is on the test track, proving what he can do with the 'vehicle' he has been given.

And due to man's innate nature I'd wager if you had a hundred different Adam's, over half and probably more would have eaten the fruit because man is what he is, a very flawed and easily influenced creature.

That is where you are dead wrong. Man was not created with defects...he was created perfect, but with free will. He was not easily influenced and flawed in the beginning at all.
Reading Genesis is interesting when you put down your pre-conceived notions and really read what it says.

The rebel spirit who became satan the devil questioned God's right to set limits for his earthly children. He was there in the garden the whole time, observing the interaction of the man with his instructor. After a very long time, God said that it was "not good for the man to continue by himself" so he finally made a mate for Adam.

Since Adam had named all the animals, he saw how God had created mates for all of them, but he remained alone as the only one of his "kind". When his mate was brought to him, he immediately bonded to her as "bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh". The devil played on that bond by targeting the woman when Adam was not with her. The devil slandered God and called him a liar...planting seeds of doubt. As the newer and less experienced of the two, she fell for satan's deception. If Adam had been there with her, there may well have been a different outcome. But having already eaten of the forbidden fruit with no apparent bad outcome, she offered some to her husband.
He was now in a real predicament....would he be loyal to his wife or loyal to his God? This is exactly what the devil planned....he made Adam choose between the two loves of his life.....divide and conquer is still his favorite tactic. We are all in the same position as Adam.....we all have to choose Yahweh as our God and demonstrate loyalty to him, as the equally perfect man Jesus did. The devil tried to tempt him to disobey God as well. He is our exemplar.

For Christians those who still believe this I'd like to hear your argument on why you still believe this. I haven't looked in to the origins of this idea yet but I highly doubt that it was part of the belief system of the early church and probably came along with St Augustine but I could be wrong. Either way it makes no sense and I reject it.

Please don't reject it until you understand it. It makes perfect sense because free will is never going to be taken away from us, so the propensity to disobey will always be there as a natural consequence of being given choices.....but the precedents are now set for all eternity. The case has been tried and heard and all written down as proof that the devil's way is not the best way....humanity have suffered greatly under his rulership. Independence from God hasn't led to a happy and secure life...it has just led to people abuse their free will more and more until life for many is just not worth living. The world we have now is degenerating into more and more chaos, and unless God steps in as he has promised to do, the killing will not stop.

God is a rewarder, so all those who remain loyal to God during this 'road test' will be glad they did. Everlasting life in paradise will be given to all who pass the test. (Job 42:12-17) Who could ask for more?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I have not across any religion other than Christianity that has the idea of Original Sin. Sex (in marriage) is one of the things that people are supposed to indulge in, it is a duty to enjoy sex and procreate, otherwise one does not get to go to heaven (one of the four 'purusharthas' in Hinduism along with study, earning, and effort for moksha). A son, a daughter's son or an adopted son is necessary to give the flame to one's funeral pyre.
 
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