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Basis for Trusting Muhammad?

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Simple question, if life is a natural product which originated from the non-living matter,
so what prevent us from creating organisms from the non-living matter, we have
intelligence and we can search, investigate and analyze better than the inanimate
nature, why do you think we can't yet do that simple thing?
If the Qur'an says that people are made of dirt, then why when we closely inspect our bodies do we find that they are made of living cells? Why, when those cells die, don't they become dirt but instead must be consumed by bacteria? No bacteria = no dirt! It is probably because in the time when the Qur'an is written people think that death is a magical process, so they easily accept that the body is made of dirt when in fact it is not made of dirt. Now that it can be seen that the body is made of cells this oversight becomes obvious and adds to the reasons not to trust Muhammad.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
If the Qur'an says that people are made of dirt, then why when we closely inspect our bodies do we find that they are made of living cells? Why, when those cells die, don't they become dirt but instead must be consumed by bacteria? No bacteria = no dirt! It is probably because in the time when the Qur'an is written people think that death is a magical process, so they easily accept that the body is made of dirt when in fact it is not made of dirt. Now that it can be seen that the body is made of cells this oversight becomes obvious and adds to the reasons not to trust Muhammad.

Where did the quran say that people were made from dirt?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
A man comes from the top of a mountain and says that YHVH had talked with him from the fire in a bush.
If you were around in the time of Moses, on what basis would you believe he's telling the truth? Please
Regards
Tumah said:
I wouldn't. And neither did the Jews then.
And when did the Jews start believing that YHVH had conversed with Moses and on what basis and as such he was a prophet of YHVH? Please quote from Torah.
Regards
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
A man comes from the top of a mountain and says that YHVH had talked with him from the fire in a bush.
If you were around in the time of Moses, on what basis would you believe he's telling the truth? Please
Regards
Tumah said:
I wouldn't. And neither did the Jews then.
And when did the Jews start believing that YHVH had conversed with Moses and on what basis and as such he was a prophet of YHVH? Please quote from Torah.
Regards
Eleven chapters later when they leave Egypt. Ex 14:31.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Will one quote it please? Why were the Jews hesitant to believe a truthful prophet of YHVH earlier? Please
Regards
Someone may quote it for you. But I will not. You can do your own leg-work.

Not everyone who claims to be a prophet of G-d is actually a prophet. This prophet Moses came with a prophecy that G-d will take them out of Egypt. He has no record of fulfilled prophecies, so why should they believe him?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Someone may quote it for you. But I will not. You can do your own leg-work.

Not everyone who claims to be a prophet of G-d is actually a prophet. This prophet Moses came with a prophecy that G-d will take them out of Egypt. He has no record of fulfilled prophecies, so why should they believe him?
You mean Moses, they accepted him without a prophecy record. Strange for the Jews, they did not accept Jesus and put him on the Cross to kill Jesus but accepted Moses without such a record!!!??? I don't think Judaism people could be so biased and cruel. Right? Please
Since one started the thread so I asked one to quote for Moses from the Torah. Is it a big task? Thanks and regards for friend @LuisDantas for the help to quote it :

Exodus.14
1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn back and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, before Baal-zephon: over against it shall ye encamp by the sea.
3 And Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he shall follow after them; and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host: and the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah. And they did so.
5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people were fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was changed towards the people, and they said, What is this we have done, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him: 7 and he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over all of them.
8 And Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: for the children of Israel went out with a high hand.
9 And the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses [and] chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baal-zephon.
10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians were marching after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto Jehovah.
11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt?
12 Is not this the word that we spake unto thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which he will work for you to-day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to-day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14 Jehovah will fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
15 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward.
16 And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground.
17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall go in after them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have gotten me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
19 And the angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud removed from before them, and stood behind them: 20 and it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel; and there was the cloud and the darkness, yet gave it light by night: and the one came not near the other all the night.
21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and Jehovah caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all the night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24 And it came to pass in the morning watch, that Jehovah looked forth upon the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of cloud, and discomfited the host of the Egyptians.
25 And he took off their chariot wheels, and they drove them heavily; so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for Jehovah fighteth for them against the Egyptians.
26 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Stretch out thy hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.
27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and Jehovah overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, even all the host of Pharaoh that went in after them into the sea; there remained not so much as one of them.
29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
30 Thus Jehovah saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea-shore.
31 And Israel saw the great work which Jehovah did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared Jehovah: and they believed in Jehovah, and in his servant Moses.

Does one mean that Judaism people did not believe in Moses until they were out of the Egypt?
That is totally wrong, they first believed in Moses that YHVH had spoken to Moses and that is the reason they sided with Moses and risked animosity of Pharaoh.
Judaism people were not that brave, had they been they would have got freedom much earlier, they would have not waited for Moses. Right? Please

The same way people believed in Muhammad and were convinced by this truthful prophet-hood and tolerated persecution at hands of the Meccan disbelieves. Right?
Regards
 
Last edited:

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
>Judaism people
>Judaism people
>Judaism people
>Judaism people
>Judaism people
>Judaism people
>Judaism people

giphy.gif
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Be yourself than following any man on earth, why do you think the teachings of a person
lived thousands of years ago is better than your own way of life, still you are following a man
and his name was Buddha.
Well, first off, Buddha is not a name. In fact, it is a title meaning the "Awakened One". It really doesn't matter to me if the Buddha was "really" Sakyamuni, Jesus, Socrates, Lao Tzu, or Atilla the Hun. What matters are the Buddha's Teachings.

Secondly, I follow the Awakened One's teachings because I am able to test them out for myself, and know personally - here and now - that they are helpful.

So, in that sense, and to be precise, I am actually "concurring with personally verified Teachings" - I am not "(blindly) following a man."

Islam is the teachings itself, it isn't a person name to follow.
Those teachings depend on the reality of the man who proposed himself to be an required intermediary and personality between god and man. That's why Muhammad and his acts "must be believed to be real". Not so with early Buddhist teachings.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
God challenged that we won't know what life is, God confirmed that the soul and the spirit is beyond our knowledge, so if you think one day we'll know then why not till now?

Yes we can't know everything, not having evidence doesn't mean a thing doesn't exist, we know that viruses exist because we were able to invent the microscopes, we can't know what beyond our universe, we can't know what it was before the singularity, so not knowing isn't an evidence for anything.
We very well know what life is. We have made changes in it (Genetically modified foods). You eat that every day.

"In 2006, the same team, at the J. Craig Venter Institute, had constructed and patented a synthetic genome of a novel minimal bacterium, Mycoplasma laboratorium and were working on getting it functioning in a living cell." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_biology#Synthetic_DNA

"One component is the cosmic microwave background radiation. This component is redshifted photons that have freely streamed from an epoch when the Universe became transparent for the first time to radiation. Its discovery and detailed observations of its properties are considered one of the major confirmations of the Big Bang." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_background_radiation

220px-Ilc_9yr_moll4096.png
Do not insist on remaining in 7th Century. The world has moved ahead, move with it.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
You mean Moses, they accepted him without a prophecy record. Strange for the Jews, they did not accept Jesus and put him on the Cross to kill Jesus but accepted Moses without such a record!!!??? I don't think Judaism people could be so biased and cruel. Right? Please
Since one started the thread so I asked one to quote for Moses from the Torah. Is it a big task? Thanks and regards for friend @LuisDantas for the help to quote it :

Exodus.14
1 And Jehovah spake unto Moses, saying,

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn back and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, before Baal-zephon: over against it shall ye encamp by the sea.
3 And Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.
4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he shall follow after them; and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host: and the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah. And they did so.
5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people were fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was changed towards the people, and they said, What is this we have done, that we have let Israel go from serving us?
6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him: 7 and he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over all of them.
8 And Jehovah hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: for the children of Israel went out with a high hand.
9 And the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses [and] chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baal-zephon.
10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians were marching after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto Jehovah.
11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to bring us forth out of Egypt?
12 Is not this the word that we spake unto thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it were better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.
13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of Jehovah, which he will work for you to-day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to-day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.
14 Jehovah will fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
15 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward.
16 And lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thy hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go into the midst of the sea on dry ground.
17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall go in after them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am Jehovah, when I have gotten me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
19 And the angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud removed from before them, and stood behind them: 20 and it came between the camp of Egypt and the camp of Israel; and there was the cloud and the darkness, yet gave it light by night: and the one came not near the other all the night.
21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and Jehovah caused the sea to go [back] by a strong east wind all the night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.
24 And it came to pass in the morning watch, that Jehovah looked forth upon the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of cloud, and discomfited the host of the Egyptians.
25 And he took off their chariot wheels, and they drove them heavily; so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for Jehovah fighteth for them against the Egyptians.
26 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Stretch out thy hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.
27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to its strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and Jehovah overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.
28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, even all the host of Pharaoh that went in after them into the sea; there remained not so much as one of them.
29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
30 Thus Jehovah saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea-shore.
31 And Israel saw the great work which Jehovah did upon the Egyptians, and the people feared Jehovah: and they believed in Jehovah, and in his servant Moses.

Does one mean that Judaism people did not believe in Moses until they were out of the Egypt?
That is totally wrong, they first believed in Moses that YHVH had spoken to Moses and that is the reason they sided with Moses and risked animosity of Pharaoh.
Judaism people were not that brave, had they been they would have got freedom much earlier, they would have not waited for Moses. Right? Please

The same way people believed in Muhammad and were convinced by this truthful prophet-hood and tolerated persecution at hands of the Meccan disbelieves. Right?
Regards
No they didn't accept Moses until they left Egypt. If you look in 5:19-21 even after Moses' prophecy, they weren't happy with what he was doing.

Even after Moses prophecy was fulfilled they didn't completely believe him unti 19:9, when they get prophecy and see for themselves clearly that G-d sent Moses.
Earlier in chapter 4, they believed Moses enough to hear his message as it says "and the nation believed him and they heard...". But it doesn't say that they believed Moses was sent by G-d until chapter 14 when he finally fulfilled that prophecy he made to them.
Jesus having never made and fulfilled any prophecies would've had the status of a false prophet who is killed by Jewish Law per Deut. 18:20.

According to the Torah, they didn't try to leave earlier because they knew they had to finish their allotted time and wait for G-d to redeem them. The tribe Menashe made their own calculation and tried leaving on their own 30 years earlier and were decimated.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I just stumbled on this thread. Personally I don't think that any ordinary test really applies. Shakespeare was a literary genius but no prophet. Many have performed miracles or apparently so, but to me that could be a sign of a good magician who knows how to create illusions. It's certainly not in any worldly attainments because many have created immense empires that have endured for hundreds of years without being a prophet.

To me Ramakrishna's statement is a pointer: "When the flower is ripe, the bees come of their own accord." There is something invisible about a true prophet that attracts those whose hearts are open to receiving the truth. In the Jewish tradition the same point is made in a different way but one that points in the same direction "I traveled to the Maggid not to hear Torah from him, but to see how he ties and unties his shoelaces." In the Sermon on the Mount, another way of expressing it is "For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes."

Since we don't live in the time of Muhammad, Jesus or the Baal Shem Tov, how can we today evaluate whether someone had exalted spiritual status, especially given that we are ordinary people. To me there's no sure way. But if our hearts are satisfied that we've found someone whose life inspires us and whose teachings help us orient our lives in an upward direction we've at least made a good choice.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
There is something invisible about a true prophet that attracts those whose hearts are open to receiving the truth. In the Jewish tradition the same point is made in a different way but one that points in the same direction "I traveled to the Maggid not to hear Torah from him, but to see how he ties and unties his shoelaces."
This statement doesn't mean what you seem to be saying.
He's saying the Maggid's every action is so invested in service of G-d that he could learn how to serve G-d better just from watching how the Maggid ties his shoes.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Its not Muhammad or any so called prophet that I don't trust, its the people of that day that put these so called prophets up on a pedestal, and put their own words into their mouths, and hence, we don't truly know what to believe, the best solution is to let your own inner being be the judge.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
This statement doesn't mean what you seem to be saying.
He's saying the Maggid's every action is so invested in service of G-d that he could learn how to serve G-d netter just from watching how the Maggid ties his shoes.

I believe your point is also true and supports my point from a different perspective. I agree that someone who truly serves God must necessarily have every action reflect that service as you stated. And I would further agree and extend your observation about watching shoes being tied to others. If watching, say, Muhammad, do the equivalent of tying his shoes leads one to serve God better, then that is the basis for trusting Muhammad.
 
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